Apolyton University Mod (PTW version)

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by alexman
Also, the Small Wonder implementation of the Kremlin does not work as expected.

Even though it does not show up in the list of improvements in the city, it actually continues to work even after the civ switches out of Communism.

???? -- I've heard/read repeatedly that this was fixed with 1.29 -- ????

-Oz

[alexman]

One more thing.

Impi are flagged as an offensive and defensive unit for the AI. This is not so bad in the first half of the ancient age (it's like building Chariots with an extra defense for the same cost), but it hurts them in the second half of the ancient age, because they continue building some Impi when they could be building swordsmen or horsemen. I think we should remove the AI offense flag from Impi.

Similarly with Numidian Mercenaries. They are flagged for both offense and defense, so the AI builds some of them for offense instead of Swordsmen, Horsemen, and Archers. I think we should remove the AI offense from this unit as well.

PS. Oz, I just tested it. Perhaps it was fixed for improvements, not Wonders.

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by alexman
It's worth testing whether flagging artillery as AI "offense" instead of "artillery" will do the trick.

"Historical" benefits as well -- e.g., siege and horse artillery offensive, "Napoleonic" artillery (in quotes to refer to the guns called that through the ACW) defensive. Yes, they were of course deployed as part of offensives, but weren't exactly the sorts of things you'd say, advance with under fire.

-Oz

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by alexman
One more thing.

PS. Oz, I just tested it. Perhaps it was fixed for improvements, not Wonders.

*sigh*

Many thanks for beating me to the punch

-Oz

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by alexman
Impi are flagged as an offensive and defensive unit for the AI. This is not so bad in the first half of the ancient age (it's like building Chariots with an extra defense for the same cost), but it hurts them in the second half of the ancient age, because they continue building some Impi when they could be building swordsmen or horsemen. I think we should remove the AI offense flag from Impi.

Similarly with Numidian Mercenaries. They are flagged for both offense and defense, so the AI builds some of them for offense instead of Swordsmen, Horsemen, and Archers. I think we should remove the AI offense from this unit as well.

Apologies, as I am jumping into this thread rather late on, but wouldn't flagging upgrade paths fix this?

-Oz

[alexman]

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by flagging upgrade paths, but these two units upgrade to pikemen, at which time they lose their AI offense flags. But until then, the AI builds some Impi/Mercs especially for offense. That means that it builds less of something else, like horsemen.

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by alexman
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by flagging upgrade paths, but these two units upgrade to pikemen, at which time they lose their AI offense flags. But until then, the AI builds some Impi/Mercs especially for offense. That means that it builds less of something else, like horsemen.

Hmmm ....

I understand that a major goal is to change as little as possible, BUT ...

Perhaps have them upgrade to swordsmen, and likewise flag the swordsmen offensive & defensive. IMHO, if the paradigm for the swordsmen is the Roman Legion, then they should have equal offensive & defensive factors.

.... Okay, I'll tiptoe quietly away now ...

Happy Holidays,

Oz

[Jaybe]

The Artillery Question

If the purpose is to make the AI more "equal" to the player, how about this uh, RADICAL change:

Remove all ground Artillery units from the game.
No more catapults, cannon, artillery or radar artillery for anyone. Cruise missile removal would be optional.

Leave the air and sea bombardment, which the AI seems to use somewhat proficiently.

[player1]

About offense flag for Impi and Num. Merc:

Removing it would make these 2 civs severly handicapped in early game when thse units are suppesed to shince.

On the other hand, I don't see problem in later game, since AI civ will still build horse&sword units (together with thesse UUs).

And, on the longer run, problem will be resolved when AI gets Gunpowder.

[alexman]

Actually, the problem is solved with Feudalism, as both units upgrade to Pikemen. But I'm still not convinced that the AI is better off by using these units for offense. Remember, for the AI, each unit has only one function: offense or defense.

Take first the Numidian Mercenary. It costs the same as a Swordsman. Why build this unit for offense if you can build Swordsmen? If you don't have iron, you can build Archers, who have the same attack and are cheaper.

Similarly for the Impi. Why build this unit for offense, if you can build Archers that cost the same and have a higher attack, or Horsemen that are more expensive but have higher attack and the same movement?

In a test debug game I observed, the Zulu and Carthage were at war. It was very funny to watch the battles. Hordes of Impi would get slaughtered trying to attack Mercenaries. Then the next turn you would get mercenary after mercenary getting killed trying to counterattack the surviving Impi... They would have both been much better off using Swordsmen and Horsemen to attack.

More news on the Government-specific Wonders. They work as long as you don't use the flags that are only for Wonders. If you use flags that are for improvements, they work fine. Fortunately, happy faces are also available to improvements, so we can have the Kremlin (or whatever), as long as we don't give it free maintenance for trade installations as I had suggested.

[ducki]

Originally posted by alexman
Similarly with Numidian Mercenaries. They are flagged for both offense and defense, so the AI builds some of them for offense instead of Swordsmen, Horsemen, and Archers. I think we should remove the AI offense from this unit as well.

I was actually thinking of trying a "Mercenary Rush".
Since Carthage doesn't start with any tech that allows any unit, if they get Bronze first, then they can start building an attack force that doesn't need defenders and that can easily hold any city they take.

It's like the Bowman, but stronger defensively, IMO.
It's a first-level tech, and with culture linking, you can probably buy Bronze from Greece or maybe Ottomans very early to begin building a strange attack force that is its own defense.



Since I haven't tried it yet, though, I can't say whether it works or not, but I have a feeling it would be even better than using Archers, since you don't need to build defenders once your conquest is over.

[Pyrodrew]

how about this uh, RADICAL change:
Remove all ground Artillery units from the game.

I believe some found my idea too radical, so this is earth-shattering. I'm guessing some want to leave artillery in for the human & AI because AU has 2 goals (maybe more?):

1.Help the AI
2.Keep the game as much like the original as possible

Since Goal 1 does not have priority over Goal 2, artillery stays in regardless of the human advantages with it. That's my guess anyways. But I support your idea, simply because I know it would help the AI. That's why I also am designing a mod on the side with AI help being the only goal - for a truly diabolical AI.

[Mad Bomber]

Jaybe:

The idea with this mod are conservative changes in order to balance out the game, removing all land artillery is too radical, and IMO tilts the game too heavily in favor of the AI. Have you used extensive Airpower? After the avent of SAMS and Jet Fighters, Airpower becomes very costly until the discovery of Stealth, even then it is still rather costly way of reducing enemy metros. Sea bombardment is simply not effective enough and cannot be employed against large areas.

Alexman:

Try flagging the cruise missle as a tactical missle, this should let the AI be able to load it onto any ship w/ transport capacity and "only transport tactical missle" flag. Not sure if this will work in fact, because the AI does not load tactical missles on any ship even nuc subs which it should be able to do with vanilla 3.

as for the Zulu's I modded the Impi to a 2.1.2 and had them replace archers, the impi was used almost soley for offense, even if they are spearmen.

Not sure about Numidian Merc, as I do not have PTW yet.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Jaybe:

The idea with this mod are conservative changes in order to balance out the game, removing all land artillery is too radical, and IMO tilts the game too heavily in favor of the AI. Have you used extensive Airpower? After the avent of SAMS and Jet Fighters, Airpower becomes very costly until the discovery of Stealth, even then it is still rather costly way of reducing enemy metros. Sea bombardment is simply not effective enough and cannot be employed against large areas.

I SAID it was a radical idea!
I HAVE used airpower extensively, and find that substantial use of offensive fighter missions mitigates much of defender AS missions and bomber losses become small. Both bombers and artillery have the same strength (stock values), 8 x 3 RoF or 12 x 2 RoF.

The point was that only the player will use artillery to reduce a city's population/defense bonuses and is a gross advantage. Can you imagine having to come up with different tactics or even victory strategies to compensate? Might even have to reduce difficulty levels! ***Disclaimer: I have always played at Regent.

The loss of those offensive fighters I have reduced by increasing their defense strength to almost their attack strength (e.g., Jets are 8/7), with the exception of the F-15 which is equal (8/8). Chance of Intercept increased to 67%.
OTOH, this is probably a tactic which only the player would use substantially. I have never witnessed a SAM situation.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Jaybe

I SAID it was a radical idea!
I HAVE used airpower extensively, and find that substantial use of offensive fighter missions mitigates much of defender AS missions and bomber losses become small. Both bombers and artillery have the same strength (stock values), 8 x 3 RoF or 12 x 2 RoF.

The point was that only the player will use artillery to reduce a city's population/defense bonuses and is a gross advantage. Can you imagine having to come up with different tactics or even victory strategies to compensate? Might even have to reduce difficulty levels! ***Disclaimer: I have always played at Regent.

The loss of those offensive fighters I have reduced by increasing their defense strength to almost their attack strength (e.g., Jets are 8/7), with the exception of the F-15 which is equal (8/8). Chance of Intercept increased to 67%.
OTOH, this is probably a tactic which only the player would use substantially. I have never witnessed a SAM situation.

Yes I have modded the fighters similar to yours, but If you haven't run into SAM's then play out the modern world more (perhaps try playing a game with 16 civ's and only conquest as a victory condition) SAM's completely eliminate the possibility of a successful air campaign without Stealth, they intercept with the same possibility as a fighter and can only be bombed out of existance (usually you have to take out 7-10 improvements before you will knock out the SAM) .This is only feasible with Precision Bombing which is only available to the F-15 and Stealth aircraft. I'll try to get a screenshot of a SAM site in action and have it ready for the next time I post. I too play almost exclusively on Regent.