Apolyton University Mod (PTW version)

[ducki]

What's the cost difference between Infantry and Guerilla?

Is there a certain cut-off point where the AI will build Infantry instead? Like if it's a 2-turn vs. 3-turn build?

Is there any difference in build prefs depending on city size?(I guess this would tie into the time-cost for the build)

There must be something that we're just not seeing that's causing this. Is there any advantage to guerillas at all? Time-to-build, cost-to-build, movement, anything?

me = intrigued

[Dominae]

Infantry and Guerilla both cost 90 Shields and are both available with Replaceable Parts.

Infantry stats are 6/10/1 in stock Civ3, 8/10/1 in the AU mod; Guerilla are 6/6/1 in stock Civ3. For some reason that I can't remember, the AU mod stats of Guerilla were changed to 7/6/1.

Infantry require Rubber to build, Guerilla do not. Only the "defender" path upgrades to Infantry (Spearmen, Pikemen, Riflemen). Most things that didn't upgrade in stock Civ3 now upgrade to Guerilla in PTW (a notable exception is Cavalry).

All this to say that, with access to Rubber, there is no reason to build Guerilla instead of Infantry. You could still have Guerillas kicking around if you've upgraded to them, though.


Dominae

[jshelr]

I think that infantry are wheeled in the mod so that guerilla units can go places infantry no longer can.

[alexman]

Actually, Infantry is not wheeled. Mech. Infantry is.

Is it bad for Med. Infantry to upgrade to Infantry if you have rubber? I think it would be a good thing. I don't see how it would affect strategy (I doubt one would build more swordsmen or Med. Infantry instead of knights because of this), it helps the AI, it is historically more correct, and it eliminates useless items from the build list.

[Jaybe]

Guerilla upgrades

So Guerillas are an "offensive" unit, and the AI will still build an offensive unit rather than an offensively superior defensive unit, eh?

Civ3/PTW is such a complicated mess!

[alexman]

Jaybe, Guerillas and Infantry are both offensive and defensive units to the AI.

Wild guess: When the AI needs a unit, it evaluates all the possible units it can build for that purpose, and chooses one. If it already has many of that type, it might choose a less effective one, because if the AI always built the best unit according to its evaluation, it would end up being unbalanced or at least predictable.

Example: Horsemen versus Swordsmen for offense. Which to build? The AI builds both of them, but it's very unlikely that they are both evaluated to be exactly equal. Another example is Marines versus Tanks. The AI builds tanks for offense most of the time, but sometimes builds Marines (presumably when it has enough tanks already). So with Guerillas, it thinks there might be some reason (not coded in its evaluation) to have them at the same time as Infantry, so it builds them just in case. It doesn't build very many though, just as it doesn't build very many Paratroopers over tanks.

[alexman]

Proposed changes in 1.13

• Guerillas upgrade to Infantry.
  To prevent the AI from building them when rubber is available, to clean up build list, to remove the awkward situation of Guerillas and Infantry fighting side-by-side.
• Bombard strength of F-15 and Stealth Fighters back to original (4).
  Cost of Stealth Bomber back to original (240)
  The lethal bombard ability (and stealth) is already enough to make these units worth using for bombarding. No need for more bonuses.
• Increase aggresion of Iroquois and Chinese to 4.
  Reduce aggresion of Babylonians to 2.
  Replace Chinese defensive units by offensive units as a build-often item.
  To make the AI play these civs to their traits' advantage.
• Increase optimal number of cities for all map sizes by 50%.
  Reduce percent of optimal number of cities for all levels by 1/3.
  To make the AI threaten domination without changing the corruption model.
• Replace Diplomats by Alliances in all techs after Writing.
  Same as before, except now you shouldn't get the pop-up to establish embassies when you already know Writing.

Object, approve, add, or discuss at will!

[Jaybe]

I presume you meant:
Reduce percent of optimal number of cities for all levels by 1/3.

[alexman]

Or multiply by 2/3, yes. Edited my post, thanks.

[Dominae]

I like all the changes, alexman. Perhaps we could also change the Guerilla's Attack back to 6 (or maybe push it up to 8?).


Dominae

[Fosse]

I really don't like the idea of upgrading geurillas to infantry. I like their role as an end upgrade path for warriors and archers, that can be used with limited results in an offensive or defensive role.

Infantry with geurillas side by side never bothered me. I saw it as partisans cooperating with regular forces, like the French resistance in WWII.

Also... since drafting makes either riflemen or infantry... there would be an odd situation where you would have no rubber, and draft rifles even though geurillas are the units of choice. (okay, I know...easily fixed)

But if it's the only way to get the AI to stop building them over infantry... then it's the only way.

Question though... I seem to recall that ages ago in this (or the Poor AI) forum it was discovered that the AI simply builds whatever unit comes latest on the build list. Someone tested this by creating a dummy warrior that the AI would build in the modern ages.

If this is actually the reason... couldn't we rename the geurilla unit "infantry" and the infantry unit "Guerilla" and then just switch their stats and Civilopedia information?
There would be no change to the units and gameplay, only the build list.

Then Infantry would be later on the list than Geurillas...

Would that actually work?

I'm a fan of the ROF changes you suggested as well. Deviating from stock isn't ideal... but when stock is severly broken... it's worth testing for an iteration, anyway.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Fosse
since drafting makes either riflemen or infantry... there would be an odd situation where you would have no rubber, and draft rifles even though geurillas are the units of choice. (okay, I know...easily fixed)

Actually, I believe Guerillas are already listed as a draft unit, so you would never draft riflemen if you have Rep. Parts. Good thinking though!

I seem to recall that ages ago in this (or the Poor AI) forum it was discovered that the AI simply builds whatever unit comes latest on the build list. Someone tested this by creating a dummy warrior that the AI would build in the modern ages.

It was me, and it was a bad experiment because I had defensive units as build-never (to force the AI to build an offensive unit in its first turn), and the AI gets confused when you select things as build-never.

Just to be clear, Guerillas are built under stock rules, but not nearly as often as Infantry. The AI makes the right choice most of the time, but throws a Guerilla in the build queue now and then.

Dominae, I know your bias against odd attack strengths.
I think we should give Guerillas +2 attack then, to match the changes in Infantry, Paratroopers, and Marines.

[BRC]

It doesn't build very many though, just as it doesn't build very many Paratroopers over tanks.

I agree that the AI should not build Guerrillas when it can build Infantry. No doubt. But I am having a hard time with the Swordsman and Spearman upgrade paths converging. Is that really the only way for us to fix that??

All the rest I like, but I don't really feel as if this change helps the AI enough to justify it. I understand how it makes sense from a historical point of view. I like the idea. I just don't care much for the solution.

I don't see how it would affect strategy (I doubt one would build more swordsmen or Med. Infantry instead of knights because of this), it helps the AI, it is historically more correct, and it eliminates useless items from the build list.

I really think that Firaxis should have thought harder about the Medievil Infantry and the Guerrilla, but there is nothing we can do now. I agree with you that this probably won't change strategy. I have heard some interesting way of changing the Guerilla so that it would serve a purpose. Movement of 2, treating all terrain as grassland, etc. would be a more effective solution IMO. I do realize that this does change the game more, which is not something I really want to do. However, I would rather find a way to incorporate the Guerrilla into the game rather than try to abandon it when you control rubber. Thanks. Sorry.

[player1]

I have no problem like this in my MOD, since there, bow&sword upgardes directly to Riflemen.

And since it has riflemen with cost of 70 and guerrila with cost of 80 (infantry with orignal cost), some AI guerrila from time to time (and that rare) is no problem (since it's cheaper from Infantry anyway).

And the reason I keep attack 7 guerrila is to not make them to much owerpowering against Riflemen (which has just +1 on attack), since there is a time when both sides have no rubber (rare but possibile).

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
Dominae, I know your bias against odd attack strengths.

I'm sad to say, but that's basically what it comes down to!

Concerning the loss of variety by making two upgrade paths converge, I'm sympathetic. However, alexman is right: in actual gameplay it won't affect strategy very much (how many Medieval Infantry to you have hanging around in the Industrial age anyway?). Putting the Guerilla's Attack at 8 means that the AI (which does have Medieval Infantry hanging around) will benefit from the upgrades, Rubber or no. And the odd time that it does build a Guerilla when it should build Infantry, at least its got decent attacker.


Dominae