AU 106 Spoilers

[jshelr]

A Republic Without Pottery

I haven’t read the other spoilers yet. But I’ll toss this in first and then come back with any comments later.

I bet most of us chose Persia to get the science and, especially, the industrious workers.

Knowing that the AI would not be around for a few millennia, the borg approach with a beeline to Republic offered the fastest path to setting up a civ with a well placed FP. After all, we would not get a great leader for the FP.

Started out placing cities mostly with one square between. This idea looked even better after it became clear that we would have only one lux (on Emperor). Borg cities stay small for a long time. After a warrior and a settler, cities number two and three were put on Colossus and Palace builds, with the Palace in anticipation of a quick Palace bounce for the FP. We borged on out to the required number of cities just about the same time code of laws was completed. Maybe two-thirds of the land was settled by that point and we had units out sweeping for barbs in the far north and far south. England got the Colossus (thank God) and we cascaded to Pyramids. After the Palace bounce, which left the Palace about 1/3 the way down the land mass and the FP about 2/3 the way down it, we cascaded from Pyramids to Palace, with just enough time to get Literature and change to the GL. Got the GL. This made the game exceedingly strange.

Arrived at Republic and took an immediate anarchy. After that, what to do next? We were a Republic without pottery, iron, or even a wheel!!! Libraries were finishing to push borders out into the sea.

Not sure I did the right thing. Based on usual preference, I went toward currency to get markets. Question: do markets enhance the effects of the entertainment slider? I simply don’t know.

I went for CB next to start some happiness builds and worked though construction out to monotheism. During this stage of going back to the early techs, I could get a tech in four turns with entertainment on 20%. By AD 170, I had worked the slider up to 40% entertainment.

I shut down research completely after cathedrals were permitted. (I admit I just wanted to see what a huge rain of tech awards would feel like when the GL kicked in.)

Quite a few turns later (20?) the flash popup with the tech list showed Persia as number 4. I bet we were near number one when we shut down. The straight line to Republic worked well and the techs cheapened so much when we went back to fill in that they were very fast.

Egypt gets Copernicus in 1360. Visitors expected soon. Hope someone lands so I can hit them with immortals, triggering a GA.

England wanders over to visit, but I don’t get much of a tech haul. Stops short of printing press and only goes to chemistry and Navigation. No banking. However, I’ve got gold supplies in huge quantity and work my way to a few lux as well as meet everyone in the next few turns. The Iroquois are the big boys, but Cleo is in the running. Score is actually very close and we’re right there. Upgraded horses to knights.

No one lands and I lost patience waiting for someone to attack. Workers would be needed for RR soon and I wanted, for obscure reasons, to ring the island with forts, just sort of to see what it looked like. So, did that before steam power and filled the forts with cavs and knights, mostly. No AI can land anywhere now, at least until marines and probably never.

Played it cool, buying tech at half price. Switched to democracy. Unleashed gold hoard to sprint by the turn and then traded the free nationalism tech for gold to extend the lead. Settled down for the race to the ToE.

Lost iron. Traded old tech to the backward nation of Germany for iron and had earlier traded with Greece for coal. Sold medical for industrialization and great GPT deals around the wheel one turn before I finished electricity.

Got ToE, but no golden age, and, with no coal, decided to do Hoovers which caused ToE to yield Atomic and Electronics.

Frankly, because the AI was forced to behave themselves by the water separating them, they are doing a damn fine job of research in this game. Even with ToE and the advantage of all that gold from the GL, I’m just barely holding on to a two tech lead. Sold Atomic for absolutely huge GPT.

Egyptian MPP triggered a war with Greece. Sent 10 ironclads down to pound on a city. Hope Cleo thinks that is enough effort, because it’s all she’s going to get. I don’t think this is going to cause WW, but we will see.

Goals for the rest of the game: IMO, domination from this point is too hard for me to accomplish. You would have to get one small piece at a time, everything would have to be delivered over water, and your citizens would resent the constant warfare. A late game sweep with MA, using air transport, is, maybe, barely possible.

However, with the AI doing a good research job, the SS is far from assured. I’m going to minimize military burden and try to win the research race. But, as a backup, it is prudent to build a swat team that can take out a single civ’s capital if someone is going to beat me. Meantime, I’ll try to find ways to stir up the diplomatic pot.

[jshelr]

Theseus

“Once I went into Republic, I really went into high gear building... I didn't use luxuries above 10%, as it didn;t seem to have much effect. Also, with only wine, I prioritized Cathedrals and Colosseums over Marketplaces, intending to get Sistine.”

I used a higher entertainment slider, but was also underwhelmed by what it accomplished. I can imagine that those who try this on Deity are going to have a terrible time with only one lux. Do you know if markets help with entertainment or only with actual luxuries?

Anyone

I was also wondering why you guys plant forests before the tundra cities topped size 12? I’m not up to speed on the forest gig.

It’s a hoot how the AI wars turned out so differently in our various games.

[Harovan]

Third and last spoiler.

I neglected trading a bit and researched up into the modern age. Meanwhile built a fairly large military with Infantry and Artillery as backbone, 4 more (empty) Armies and a decent Armored force. After discovering Fission I saw, that I lack uranium. Unleashed the military on Greece, to go for Uranium. Advanced quickly, Greece was weakened in millennia of war against Egypt. Got a 2nd leader and shipped him home, for SETI (no airlifting, as I play the standard version). Before I reached the first uranium deposit with my forces, I built the UN. I decided to give it a shot.

Got elected. Game over.

[CorpusScorpius]

I have played both the Persians & the Romans on Regent/Mod & I would have to say that the results are a little different. . The game as the Romans is currently in the1940's & everyone is still in the industrial age. By the time I met everyone, I had a reached my goal of A 250 + military not including ships & 16k gold. The GL netted me every tech including Nationalism & I was able to get TOE & Hoover.
I then sent 80 cav to the english coast & wiped them out in 2 turns. The bad news was the English had 2 caravels with settlers in them & it took me awhile to locate them.
A few turns after the demise of the English, the Greeks declared war & this effectively ended my research due to War Weariness (Dem). In hindsight, as soon as my Alliance ended with the greeks I should of attacked immediately. Oh well Live & Learn

[CorpusScorpius]

I went back & replayed the Romans from 1605 AD fwd & first contact didnt occur until 1966 (saved up 45k & didnt build anymore Mil units)w/ the Chinese (2nd pass ). The French came by twice but i guess they didnt see me.
After addresses were traded for gold, 1 turn later I picked up the remaining Middle Age techs & Industrial techs went as follows: Steam Pwr, Industrialization, Meds,Sani,Elec,Scientific Method,Replacement Parts.
I Then put the science slider to 100% & this allowed me to get Hoover & I was the first one to reach Modern Ages. While this research was going on I beefed up my Capitol Cumae (palace jump earlier)w/ Police St.,Factorie, Hospital, Wall ST., Intell Agency.
After researching Fission (while pre building Army), the UN was built & caused a GA
Hey Guys, was Germany & England rather weak in you Games?

[vulture]

Originally posted by jshelr
I used a higher entertainment slider, but was also underwhelmed by what it accomplished. I can imagine that those who try this on Deity are going to have a terrible time with only one lux. Do you know if markets help with entertainment or only with actual luxuries?

I'm pretty sure that markets and banks have the same effect on luxuries as on cash - 50% increase. Which makes them all the more valuable when you are depending on the luxury slider, since in effec building a marketplace gives you better than 50% increase in your cash flow.

I was also wondering why you guys plant forests before the tundra cities topped size 12? I’m not up to speed on the forest gig.

It's the most productive thing to do with tundra. With a forest and roads in republic or democracy, you get 1/2/2 from the forest tundra. The best you can do without forest is 1/2/2 - but only when you get to railroads; before that it is 1/1/2. So you may as well forest all the tundra, as long as you have nothing more important for your workers to do. I built a total of 12 workers, and had every tile fully developed long before making contact, so I forested all my tundra as well.

It’s a hoot how the AI wars turned out so differently in our various games.

I was surprised to see that the Iriquois wiped out Japan in one game.

[vulture]

Originally posted by CorpusScorpius
Hey Guys, was Germany & England rather weak in you Games?

England is almost always rather weak, in my experience. Germany was very poor in this game, but when you look at their island it's not really surprising. Lots of mountains and tundra, no luxuries at all, not that much space. So they had nothing to trade once contact was made, and were a long way behind in the tech race compared to the Egypt/China or Japan/Iriquois/France islands. (Okay, France is technically alone on an island, but I think they were in principle able to make contact before navigation due to the narrow sea between the islands).

[jshelr]

A Persian Colin Powell Saves the Day.

Into the modern era, it turned out that Persia had no uranium or aluminum. Bismarck had both just southeast of Berlin. The Iroquois are only one tech back despite the free tech at the turn.

So, the way to go seemed to be to make an MPP with Iroquois (so they would also suffer WW) and then get Germany to trigger it. I packed up 8 transports worth of tanks and arty, with a couple of infantry and a settler or two and headed over to Berlin, which was perfectly situated to invade. A spy plant revealed that the German armed forces could not cope with tanks. A forest square to protect the landing was one turn from a mountain right next to Berlin. I fooled around with some navel activity designed to trigger the MPP, but that didn’t work. Landed and absorbed the cav onslaught, which did little damage given the arty stack. Moved to the mountain. Redlined the defenders and took the city. Waited a turn for the arty, during which Bismarck retook the city and triggered the MPP, and then recaptured Berlin, moved SW, abandoned the city, built the new city to include both the uranium and aluminum resources. Set the build to airport and rushed it the next turn.

Here’s where the screw up became apparent. Bismarck sued for peace right away. Great. But next turn the battle between Iroquois and Germany triggered the MPP again and we were back at war. If I had just gone straight in with no diplomacy, it would have worked out fine. Used another settler to grab a nearby oil resource, but tried to stay out of the fight. Germany kept sending a few troops by, however, and war weariness became apparent. I guess the citizens were not fooled over who started the war.

By the time the MPP wound up, war weariness was growing critical. Bismarck was refusing to acknowledge our phone calls. Just at the last minute, however, he did relent and made peace. One turn from satellites, I tried to trade space flight and gold to Iroquois for computers which would have extended the tech lead for a while. However, they were too smart for that one. Basically, it was a dead heat and we were number two GDP, with human tech research penalties to pay. The SS was going to be a loser without a pre-emptive war on the Iroquois.

A raiding party to take out the Iroquois capital would need nukes – they have computers and there is no natural protecting terrain near the target. Anyway, Cleo is not doing that badly either. Despair set in among the Persian planners.

However, the Persian Colin Powell had the answer. I had been a good boy in all dealings the whole game and gave away free stuff to the downtrodden all the time. So, when UN was built, I selected a vote which we won overwhelmingly!! (Even with the win bonus, we were behind the Iroquois on the scoreboard.) It’s a bit anticlimactic, but at least it’s not a loss.

This game setup was very clever. It’s the first time I was ever able to build without the AI around to agitate. It would actually be quite helpful to have a group of starts like this one for people to get a feel for civ III. Thanks for the effort.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by jshelr
Theseus

“Once I went into Republic, I really went into high gear building... I didn't use luxuries above 10%, as it didn;t seem to have much effect. Also, with only wine, I prioritized Cathedrals and Colosseums over Marketplaces, intending to get Sistine.”

I used a higher entertainment slider, but was also underwhelmed by what it accomplished. I can imagine that those who try this on Deity are going to have a terrible time with only one lux. Do you know if markets help with entertainment or only with actual luxuries?

Anyone

I was also wondering why you guys plant forests before the tundra cities topped size 12? I’m not up to speed on the forest gig.

It’s a hoot how the AI wars turned out so differently in our various games.

I do not think Marketplaces help with happiness from the luxury slider, just from actual luxuries. That's why, for once, I built Cathedrals and Colosseums first.

The luxury slider just didn't seem to do much, at least not until my cities reached about 10 pop, so after some experimentation I settled on 10%. I later raised it to 20%, until I was able to trade for luxuries.

Regarding foresting, vulture pretty much called it re tundra.

I just did something interesting, however, for the first time. In looking at the F1 screen, I got annoyed that I had all these 12 pop cities producing so much extra food... so I started foresting all over the place!

I got Persepolis from 19 shields and 10 extra food to 29 shields and 0 extra food!!

Here's something you don;t see everyday:

[vulture]

My game is now wrapped up. In the earlier post I went up to the point where contact was made with all other civs and the first set of trades had been started (1410 AD). At this point, Persia and Egypt were in joint lead in the tech race, with Japan and France not too far back. Japan was the leader in territory and score. I lost out on Bach's and Adam Smiths due to the headstart the AI had. In 1510 the war between France and Japan ended, with nothing interesting happening.

I had been building a fleet to launch an invasion of England with my cavalry, but had to re-think the plan when in 1510 Greece attacked England. So I formed an alliance with Lizzie against the more powerful Greeks (more powerful than the English, rather than Persia). Which might surprise some of you - why team up with the weaker civ I had been intending to attack? I didn't want the Greeks getting any English cities. The English were weak enough that without my help Greece would have overrun them. With me attacking Greece, they could contribute to the effect of a few Greek knights killed, and should otherwise be able to hold their own. So neither AI civ would improve its position. Anyway, I attacked both ends of Greece at the same time, taking 3 cities at either end, including the Greek furs. Plus we took an English city that the Greeks had captured (and I decided not to give it back). This also gave us saltpetre, and we got coal from the jungle island between us and Greece, which the Greeks inexplicably failed to settle.

Going in to the industrial age I was surprised to be able to jump out to a 3 tech lead before getting ToE, and was able to hold a 4 or 5 tech lead from then till the end of the game. I'd expected that with AI trading, human research penalties, and 2 civs with larger populations, that they'd rush away from me in the tech race, but this never happened. I did make a policy of selling techs to the second place trio (Japan, Egypt, France) for as much gpt as I could get, which may have had the desired effect of hampering them. Egypt deciced to default on repayments and declared war (and got the Greeks to join them, re-starting our little war as well). I got the rest of the world allied against Egypt, and the first world war got underway in 1620. The lach of luxuries and trade no doubt hampered Egypt's research quite nicely. After the allotted 20 turns, I made peace and had a few more Greek cities (and realised once again just how dumb the movie 'Starship Troopers' is - is there a more deeply stupid film in the history of cinema?). Of course, the world war spawned other alliances over the years and kept going long after I backed out.

The brief hiatus of peace was doomed by the fact that in 1830 tank production began, and 10 years later the final war against Greece began. Which didn't take long, since they hadn't got as far as infantry yet. This time Japan decided not to continue paying me for a tech they'd bought, so once again the world went to war, this time against the Japanese.

Having been 1st in populationa and third in territory for most of the game, I was now surprised to find myself 3rd in population and 1st in territory. Strange. When the 20 turns of war were up, I was only 2 turns from completing the UN, so I didn't cancel the alliances. Japan seemed to be doing pretty well considering what they were up against. They captured a few mainland French cities, while the French captured some irrelevant cities on one of the more recently discovered islands. The Germans were also taking a bit of a beating. War weariness was running rampant for everyone else (but somehow I contrived to have the Suffrage, all the luxuries, and not to fight very many battles at all, so it didn't even show up for me). By the time I the UN was built I was back to a 5 tech lead despite having recently sold another tech to Egypt and France for lots of gpt. Either their research was badly organised, or the extortionate deals and frequent war was taking its toll (while allowing me to run science at 100% for most of the game). I'd originally planned to not hold the elections and go for a spaceship win, but since the end of the weekend loomed, I couldn't be bothered, so held the elections and won almost unanimously in 1888 (Egypt being one dissenting voice, voting for herself, and Japan abstaining, much to no-one's amazement).

[vulture]

Post game thoughts.

Far easier than I expected it to be. I think I was too generous with the size of our island at the start, although I didn't put any of those cows there. But the fact that I was able to pull away from the other civs in the industrial era suggests that the research potential of our island was too high. Given the constraints of the game, I packed cities closer together than I normally would. Making sure that every good tile was worked as soon as possible was vital. I found that 14 cities at size 12 covered all the land and much of the sea quite happily, and there was no need to build hospitals in quite a few cities. Most of my science production came from those cities, although by the end quite a few of my captured Greek cities had reached pretty good productivity as well. Capturing cities improved the science rate, but only because I was selling techs to finance everything (so I could run at 100% and still make a profit). Without that I would have had to run at 70% science or so, and I don't think that the cost of support for units to take and garrison the extra cities would have paid for their returns in science. Might try going back to the post-contact save and seeing how well I do in the tech race if I never sell any techs to the AI.

[BillChin]

An update on my Deity level game as Persians playing the AU mod. It is now about 1600 A. D. I am making decent progress on my second war with Germany. The first war yields three cities. The German pikemen, knights do a credible job against my modest force of Cavalry and musketeers. I still have not triggered a Golden Age using Immortals. The second war is my Infantry, Artillery and Calvary, vs. German Riflemen and Calvary.

I have given up on research. I steal techs from weaker nations for about 2700 gold at a high chance. At 10% luxuries, 0% research I am getting about 550 gold per turn under Republic, so that translates into about a 5 turn research rate. I dare not steal from the Greeks as they are very strong and very close. A war with them at this point would not go well. Especially as I have to watch the war weariness.
- Bill

[vulture]

Originally posted by Theseus


I do not think Marketplaces help with happiness from the luxury slider, just from actual luxuries. That's why, for once, I built Cathedrals and Colosseums first.

Just checked it and Theseus is right - marketplaces don't increase the effect of the luxury slider, just the income. Shame.

[nbarclay]

State of the Republic, 1190 AD

I'm playing Emperor level as Persia with the AU mod. My initial research priorities, all at the highest rates I could afford, were (1) Pottery, (2) Ceremonial Burial, (3) Beeline to Literature, (4) Beeline to Republic, (5) Mathematics and Currency, and (6) Iron working and Construction. Once I became a Republic, I'm not sure any of the remaining ancient techs (aside from Monarchy, which I skipped) took longer than four turns, and a time or two I managed three turns at 10% science and then a scientist the fourth turn. I went with a fairly dense build, with seventeen cities on the home continent.

I ran the luxury slider very high - 40% for a fair while before Republic and 30% thereafter. The big thing that bought me was a lot of extra production, letting my core build spearmen to take to outlying cities and disband to speed up production. I also completley bypassed barracks, since with AIs unable to travel by sea, I needed no standing army. (Even my relatively few MPs were disbanded when I became a Republic.)

I made sure I built the Great Library, but I had decidedly mixed feelings about delaying my discovery of Education to take advantage of it. When I got Theology and no one had completed the Hanging Gardens, I decided to gamble and push ahead to research Education. I was a bit skeptical as to whether I could out-research Emperor-level AIs when at least some of them had contact with each other, but even if I was behind when I made contact, having universities and banks already in place would provide an advantage to offset what I'd give up. Also, I figured I just might be able to get to Navigation quicker even if the AIs out-researched me overall, since the AIs probably wouldn't do as good a job adjusting to the peculiarities of this particular game.

Once I got Education, I pushed on to Banking and then Astronomy and Navigation. Then I sent caravels out to explore, with my top priority being contact with England (whose fishing vessels my fishing vessels could see but not quite manage to make contact with ). England was hopelessly backward, as were the Greeks who they helped me contact. But I was able to start trading luxuries and back off my luxury slider to 20%. Contacts continued, with Germany also still in the ancient era but Japan just getting into the medieval. I was reluctant to trade to Japan for contact with the Iroquois and French, but once a caravel found an outlying Iroquois city, I took the plunge. France was reasonably competitive, but still a few techs behind. So far, so good! A tech trade to France got me Feudalism, and a tech-for-luxuries deal gave France Education and me a couple more luxuries. Time to bring the luxury slider down to 10%.

Egypt was the last of the civs my caravels found, around 960 AD. (Some of Egypt's people look a bit different and speak a language called Chinese, but they're all a single nation now.) After my initial trades with Egypt, Egypt and France were even in tech about five behind me (three of them optionals). With tech-for-luxury deals to a point where I could run the luxury slider at zero, Wall Street complete, universities and banks in most of my cities, and some gold coming in from other civs (including well over 100 per turn from Egypt), I could do four-turn research with a huge surplus.

As far as wonders are concerned, I had the Great Library, Sistine's, Magellan's, and Copernicus's. France has the Pyramids the Great Wall, and Sun Tsu's. England has the Colossus, while Egypt has the Oracle (located in its Chinese sector) and Hanging Gardens. Since I finished contacting the other civs, I've added Leonardo's, Bach's, and Smith's to my roster of wonders.

I've just entered the industrial era, bypassing Military Tradition while I build up a large force of horseman to upgrade. (I currently just have a dozen.) Steam Power is taking me five turns to research (at 100%, with French and Egyptian gold paying for my upkeep), so I'll probably have to do some serious conquest or trigger a golden age to get my research rate back where I want it. I'm currently more than half a dozen techs ahead of France and Egypt, who are running fairly even for second place in the science race. I also have a couple thousand spare gold in the bank (not counting the thousand I draw interest on) to pay for upgrades.

In addition to China's defeat at the hands of the Egyptians, Japan recently finished off the Iroquois and the Greeks have conquered a little bit of English territory. The AIs have definitely been bathing in blood this game.

Nathan

[BillChin]

Second update, the killing fields of Kyoto.

It is now 1800 A. D. I was lucky with my first spies, stealing three techs, but the last three attempts have failed at 2900 gold per pop (gulp). I am back to getting tech via trading or researching. Germany is crushed with one city remaining.

The first war with Japan is rolling. I build a city on the hill next to Kyoto. It is a killing field. Most of the initial landing force of about 15 infantry and two Armies lies dead in the field. I save one of the Armies in the town as the anchor.

Despite being at war with much of the world for hundreds of years, the Japanese have waves of infantry to throw against me. Units on both sides die by the dozens. I have a second beach head city on the Japanese island on a silk tile. That attack is fairing much better. I may ship those troops via transport to reinforce my effort against Kyoto.

I have air support and arty. The Japanese know their situation is desperate and march into the meat grinder near their capital. I have cut all the roads and enlisted the powerful Greeks as allies. Tanks will not be online for another twenty turns or so. They may have to wait for the second Japanese war. I have my first leader of the game. My thinking is to rush build a Palace on the Japanese continent. I do not know if I can win the game before the Greeks build a spaceship or win a U. N. vote.

For experienced players, it looks like Emperor is very easy on this map. Deity seems easier than the majority of random maps. (Must be all those cows
- Bill