Babylon and On - Spoilers and Strategy

[DeepO]

I don't know if it is something for this scenario (maybe not), but I'm stil trying to convince one of the scenario writers to try this out: forbid humans to build settlers. I don't know even if it is modable (as there is no tech for it, is there?), but I'd really like to see a game in which you'll have to conquer every city, and keep it too.

In the late game it would be a avoid-culture-flip game, in the beginning you really have to pay attention you don't auto-raze cities. It sounds like fun to me, but I'm not sure if anybody can use the idea...

DeepO

[Velociryx]

Oh! I like that idea! I think it plays VERY well with the Barbarian scenario! Easy to do, as well....I'm diggin' that!

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Vel,

I wanna pick your brain, since we're discussing barbarians. I was playing around with the editor last night, trying to figure out how to do the Roman scenario I was discussing earlier. I'm gonna have to do the map myself, and I've been having a helluva time figuring out the scale. Remember, I want China in this thing...

But anyway, I was thinking about the barbarian units. I have so far chosen horseman as the "standard" barb, with swordsmen for the "advanced" barb. With barbs on raging and encampments all over the place, do you think this will cut it? Remember, Rome will be strong, with lots of legionaries, fortifications, bombard support, etc. What about a Bab bowman as the standard (with 0 range bombard)?

Also, do you (or anyone else) know if you can set some AI's to chieftain level and others to Regent? Or is it just 1 across-the-board choice for AI level? I want the Germans, Russians and Iroquois (my Mongols) playing on chieftain, but China, Persia & (if they're in it) India playing on regent. The human will be on Emperor.

How do I make Germany a real pain? Thus far, I have been planning on making almost all of Germany forest (lots of game for them to use), and have their cities on hills with multiple vet spears, a catapult, and walls. Part of my problem, however, is that I want to have the area largely unroaded, as it was... but it would be too easy to cripple them by cutting their iron. Should I make swordsmen a no-resource unit?

Man, the map alone is really an effort. I tried a Large map, but found it too small. No I'm using a Huge map, but am worried it's too big. And all I've done is get the general shape of N. Africa, Iberia, Gaul, Britain and Italia down (well, and some cities... I got bored with just making land).

Victory conditions... I'm thinking conquest only.

-Arrian

p.s. If anyone has a good idea of how I can generate a good map for this (from the sahara in the south to Scotland in the north, Portugal in the west to China in the east), let me know.

[DeepO]

Vel, glad you like it... I really want to try this out (after Alamo of course).

Arrian, I'm sorry I can't help you with the editor, but about the iron question: is it possible to give them 2 irons, of which one is relatively unaccessable, and both add forts and some defense units on top of them? I don't know if this is true for all games, but so far I saw that all AI that had built forts kept them occupied as well... most of these were on chokepoints, however. It would make it considerably harder for the Romans to take them out.

Other idea: put a large city, possibly Berlin, on top of a iron source. Surely this will stay defended

DeepO

[Velociryx]

Hey bud! Kudos on gettin' started on the map for the Roman scenario! That's awesome!

As to the AI play levels...it's my understanding that the editor allows a "one size fits all" approach only....IIRC (at work, and not in front of the editor), you can't set the AI levels individually. Even if that's the case though, you can approximate it by giving extra tech and units to certain civs (another good way would be to make settlers require a tech, give that tech to some civs, and require others to research it)

If you're gonna make swordsmen as the advanced barb (which is a good idea, IMO), I'd consider making an entirely new unit (Barbarian Raider), using the swordsman graphic, no changes, except that it treats all terrain as roads. That way, in addition to being a more advanced attacker and defender, it retains its mobility advantage as well...barring that, maybe use the MW as the advanced unit?

As to germany - rather than making swordsmen no-resources-required, how about chaning the German UU to a Teutonic Raider or something...maybe use the Samurai graphic....and let them build that without resources....3/2/1, ATV, no resources for 3?

IIRC, is there not a mod based on the Med that we can *maybe* get a map seed from?

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Vel,

There are good Europe/Med maps out there. But my problem is that I want Europe, the Middle East, Northern India, the Central Asian steppes, and China. That's an odd map, and I think it's unlikely that someone would have made it.

I'm not going to use the Mounted Warrior for Barbs because I'm going to use the Iroquois for the Mongols to pressure China. As for the "all terrain as roads" idea... I think that's a little too much mobility. How about a 2/2/2 unit, based on the horseman?

I suppose I could put the two best German cities on iron resources. Hmm...

Question: if you give a civ the ability to build another civ's UU, does the use of that UU result in a GA? For instance, if I gave the Germans the Bab bowman (2/2/1 + 0 range bombard) so they'd build tougher archers in their outlying, non-iron-connected cities, would the use of the unit trigger a German GA? If so, GOOD. That's how I can beef them up.

Should I set the Legionaries to be able to build roads & make forts? It's historical, but is it good for gameplay?

Luxury situation (work in progress, of course):

Rome - wines (italy), incense (egypt)
Germany&Russia - furs
Persia - incense, dyes
India - spices, ivory
China - silks, spices

up for grabs: at the very southern edge of the map in africa, I may put an ivory resource, or even a gems resource. If Rome can spare the resources to get a city down there and protect it and the road connecting it to the empire, cool. But the vast majority of Africa will be unsettled wasteland filled with barbs.

Speaking of unsettled wasteland, I think I'm going to adjust the "optimal cities" number a bit, so the AI doesn't go crazy trying to settle everywhere. Rome and China will already be over the limit, but I will probably give them each a FP. I don't trust the AI to build a FP in the right spot as China, I feel I have to give it to them... and then I feel I have to have Rome's at least partway done in Byzantium - it's not THAT big of an advantage, since it's far from an optimal spot for the FP.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Arrian
How do I make Germany a real pain?

What do you mean by "make"? We ARE a real pain!

[Arrian]

[Velociryx]

Gotcha....yeah, that's prolly not a map that's been made just yet....ARGH! Good luck on it, bro! Wow...that alone will be a pretty big task....Modded Horsies should be fine for the barbs, although if the default player is Rome, then you could prolly get away with using the ol' MW's anyway, since they'd not "see" much of the Mongolian shenanigans, but that's all you, bro. I think the 2.2.2 horsie for barbs will be fine....

The ability of a unit to cause a GA is a definable ability in the editor, actually....one of the attributes you can assign any unit, so you could set pretty much any unit you wanna so it'll cause a GA for civ(s) X (Y, Z, and beyond)....I thought that was one pretty cool feature in the editor...

I'm liking the way it's shaping up already, by the way! Lemme know when you need a tester!

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Heh, I'm a loooooong way from producing a testable scenario. If I can maintain my enthusiasm long enough to make a map that's at least playable (please don't expect Marla map-like precision), this thing will probably come together.

By the way, you may be interested in this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...5&pagenumber=2

Cool stuff, huh?

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

No worries bro....take your time....I've got a gazillion things to keep my attention till then, but I must say that I am looking forward to seeing it!

-=Vel=-

[dawidge]

Whew! Domination in 2044 with 2798 points. I'd sewn up a points victory by 2020.

I was hampered by the AI's nuisance tactics (sabotaging my GL-ready-to-be-built Palace... twice) that delayed a palace bounce until the 21st century. I chose to build neither artillery (since the AI can't use it effectively, I consider it cheating) nor air units (raw #s of MA are much more effective in my book, although some jet fighters might have come in handy against the waves of stealth bombers). I only built 10 warships during the game (2 Bardots and 8 cans) but had about 20 transports (many of which were completely unescorted ferries). Zero tech development once I reached SynFib (so there were an awful lot of RA scrapped as I entered cities).

When last I left, I was trying to decide who to kill next. Well, after wiping out the Chinese, the Americans obliged with yet another sneak attack (for some reason, I never got a declaration of war out of the americans, it was always an unannounced pounce with stealth bombers). So I took America with two landings of 27MA+9MI (and lots of airlifted reinforcements). Then Japan allowed me to seal the points victory, but I was still about 400 sectors shy of domination, so I lit into Germany (and would have wiped them out in 2044).

This save game is a keeper. I'll hope it'll run under 1.29. I'm sure I can better my score with all the pointers here. If they ever fix the AI's use of artillery (hint: you attack TROOPS with them, not just terrain), I may even start using it.