Babylon and On - Spoilers and Strategy

[Velociryx]

D'oh! Forgot the other part! As to those abbreviations:

BB - Briget (or Battleship)
CV - Carrier
CA - Cruiser
DD - Destroyer



-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

You know what I'd like to see (but don't really have the skills to create properly)?

A good Rome scenario. The civs I see in this scenario:

Rome, China, India, Persia, Germany, Russia.

Rome is at it's height (thus, no Egypt or Greece). But the barbarian hordes are massing. No contact yet between China and the outside world. But they're rollin' right along, with a slight tech lead and a well-developed empire. India is solid, but a tad isolated (they know Persia). Persia is a bit weak, but nothing to trifle with. Germany is backward, but stronger than they seem. Russia is isolated and backward, but has some really nice land to work with and some tasty huts out there for them to grab.

I think the idea would be to give Germany a sizeable mounted force with some swordies too, with very defensible cities (all on hills, w/rivers, walls, barracks). Make them absolutely hate Rome. Their cities, however, need to be fairly useless to the Romans.

Persia should be either "cautious" or "annoyed" with Rome. Perhaps all the AI's should... have the Roman's reputation be terrible (they make a desolation and call it peace).

Barb encampments all over the place... scotland (actually have Hadrians wall), scandanavia, ireland, central asia, africa...

Rome's advantages: Pyramids, Oracle, Colossus, G. Lighthouse, Great Library. Forbidden under construction in Byzantium Strong force of legions, some catapults, some spears defending cities, and a couple of horsemen (regulars ). Line of walled towns in central europe, along the frontier w/germany. Courthouses pretty much everywhere, but corruption should still be quite a problem. GA already blown (dunno quite how to work that).

The map would have to be "flat" using the Mts/ocean/Mts trick. Probably cut off at the Sahara in the south, Scandanavia in the north, obviously China in the East.

Preferably on a standard map - since it's limited to EuroAsia and N. Africa, that's plenty of space. Hardly any ocean. Domination and Conquest victories only. Up the tech costs to slow research down. Play on... Emperor sounds right.

Who has the ambition and skill to do it right?

-Arrian

p.s. Vel, I think the actual Alamo may have been easier.

[alexman]

Great idea for a scenario, but unfortunately you cannot set diplomacy relations in the editor... maybe in PtW.

[Velociryx]

Hmmm....I hadn't heard the flat trick you mentioned....tell me more about it!

I'd LOVE to tackle a Roman scenario....not to worry 'bout the reputation... there may not be any diplomacy options in the editor, but if you let me play out the first turn or two, I can all but guarantee that they'll be miffed....heh! (a bit harder to fake good relations, but pretty easy to screw them up!).

The only thing is that I'm lousy at mapping....takes to bleedin' long to make maps with the editor....*sigh* I love doing pen and paper maps, but the editor bores me to tears....ah well. Might give it a go anyways, just cos it sounds really coolio!

Will also prolly totally kill the tech tree....make it impossible to get out of the ancient, or perhaps middle ages....keep the game locked there....that'd be pretty sweet....

-=Vel=-

PS: I think you're right....I'd much rather be in Davey Crockett's shoes....::gulp!::

[Arrian]

Well, you'd just (somehow) screw up Rome's rep badly. Fight with Persia, probably, to blow both Rome & Persia's golden ages, somehow then tweaking things properly to the parameters stated above. State of war with Germany (Rome never talks to them... dirty barbarians and all that).

I'm sure there are ways to doing these things so it comes out great. No new units needed. No new techs needed. The only tricky bits I think are the GA's and diplo relations. The rest is just planting cities, improvements, wonders, units, barbs, tech levels.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Thanks... but am I missing something here? I thought the only cruisers in Civ III were the Aegis Cruisers? But we get 8 cruisers and 4 Aegis

The number of ICBMS seems alright, that should give us some leeway (sp?)... I can't wait to play it...
DeepO

[Arrian]

Vel,

Just surround the map at the edges with a line (one tile wide) of mountains, then ocean, then mountains). No one can get through that.

Same with me on the mapping. That's why I don't think I'm the man for the job.

I wouldn't kill the tech tree, but slow it down. I want the middle ages (china needs to show up like the 800lb gorilla they are). Maybe cap it at the end of the MA (at least let Russia have their Cossacks, ya know?).

-Arrian
off to lunch

[DeepO]

Arian, there is one way how you could get through that, but not in the ancient age: Nuke the mountain. With a bit of luck, some terraforming happens, and you either get some hills where there were mountains, or desert were there was sea. Building a city than means you can build a transport to cross the ocean if there still is one.

DeepO

[Velociryx]

DeepO: D'oh! Shows you how much attention I pay to the modern age! LOL....I had thought that the AEGIS cruiser was available really way late in the game, but that there was a "cruiser" unit available sometime around mass production. My bad...will adjust accordingly.... (I never build much navy...lol...never paid a whole lot of attention to it)

Arrian: Middle ages....Riders and Cossacks, but lock it there....check...gotcha... Sounds like it'll be a wampum cool thing to try. Got a couple of other civ-related projects ahead of it, but will start playing with that....should be awesome!

Anybody know of a good map of the region we could use as a starting point?

-=Vel=-

[DeepO]

Vel, no problem. I'm no navy man either

DeepO (off to diner )

[Velociryx]

By the way, aside from my cruiser mistake, what do you guys think of the force totals? Too much against us? Not enough? (believe it or not, I'm scared it might not be enough!).....thoughts there? Will require a fair bit of playtesting to get it just right, but....

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Vel,

Understandable... 'cause there should be a cruiser unit pre-Aegis.

Anyway, I think you actually need to beef up the Americans in either 1 of 2 areas:

1) artillery
2) F15's

Their bombard capability is shockingly weak, and given the sheer numbers arrayed against them, bombard units will be key to the defense.

On the Roman idea:

Dunno about the map. Probably needs to be custom made, but there may be one in the creation forum. I could look around...

My basic theme for this thing is not the decaying, collapsing Empire, but rather the powerful, grand empire that despite all it's strength finds itself forced to devote most of its resources to hold back the barbarian hordes. Fortified towns, fortresses, legions backed with catapults... the works. And yet... the the waves just keep crashing against you.

Edit: The same kinda goes for the Chinese AI civ, with hordes crashing into the Great Wall (which, like Hadrian's, should be a string of forts, only much longer and spread out). Once PtW is out... maybe this should wait for Ptw... we can put in the Mongols, Vikings and Celts. That will largely cover the "barbarians."

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Hey bud! Good point on the Arty weakness for the human player....I'm a little reluctant to beef 'em up toooo much, cos of how powerful artillery is in the hands of a "human bean" as opposed to the AI, but you're right...it's prolly a bit thin....I will nudge it up slightly, and give the USA some more of its F-15's (prolly 24 F-15's and an even dozen artillery (will likely start off with four in each of the two main fortified areas, and the rest in cities nearby, for player placement). Russia will likely get a corresponding boost in artillery (prolly to about 25-30).

I would imagine (not having tested it yet), that the early use of a nuke will be....perhaps not a requirement, but VERY attractive if a wampum big stack approaches before the human player has the opportunity to bulk up on artillery and other defenses. Am curious to see how that part shakes out!

Oh...one thing I forgot to mention....the continents.

America shares a continent with Russia, Germany, and Japan. Has direct borders wtih Russia and Germany. China is on another continent (which they have all to themselves), so at least the USA won't feel the full weight of all four nations' forces right off (note the relatively weak Chinese navy).

Also, there's a large inland sea to America's north (Germany and Russia have cities on the coast, as does America)....it is the presence of this inland sea that helps to create America's two choke points. America has a significantly stronger naval presence here than either Germany or The Rus individually, and still maintains a slight edge when considering both of them together. Lose your naval squadrons here though, and you open yourself up to yet another avenue of attack.....

-=Vel=-

PS: The more I'm hearing about the roman scenario, the more I'm liking it!

[Arrian]

There is a decent-looking Standard size map of Europe here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=54039

I suspect, however, that it's gonna be tough to find a map with the geographical boundaries I'm looking for.

Hmm... maybe for the map, one could take a decent world map (probably large/huge size) and simply wipe away the land we don't want and surround with the ocean/mts/ocean moat. The corruption factor (optimal cities) will have to be re-adjusted I'm sure, but the map itself should work fine.

Then it's a question of getting the city names/locations correct, along with roads and fortifications (do I want the Antoine wall in there, or just Hadrians?). I know almost nothing of Persia in the time of Rome's height. Same thing, but even worse with India. I've taken courses on Dynastic China, but actually setting up late Han China... yeesh. What is needed, actually, are experts on each empire. Let's say 100-200 AD for the time period. One person set's up a civ, and passes it on. The problem is... I'm not really "expert" on any of 'em.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

[threadjack in progress]

I think for the purposes of the Roman scenario, legions should be able to build roads and forts. You would have a few slaves (if possible, make 'em German and Persian to help keep those relations frigid) for irrigating and mining.

The Himalayas should have rings of water in the center (mts/water/mts) like at the edges... or just a big lake in the middle. Why? Two reasons: 1) the damn things should be impassable; and 2) I don't want barb camps popping up on Mt. Everest.

-Arrian