Babylon and On - Spoilers and Strategy

[jshelr]

The no peace suggestion reveals deep seated psychological problems that this game may be imposing on all of us.

[DeepO]

The Alamo simulation... Vel, you surely have writers blood, if only to come up with titles

I'm voting for no peace whatsoever, if only to give an interesting twist. I like the warring the MTs have given, but MT IV was so good because it was something completely different from normal play. Coming back from a desperate situation would be cool in order to win, but having a game in which winning is not an option would be a very interesting new gameplay. After all, MT IV was already a underdog situation, and even if it would be totally different it would be the same concept.

But yes, if I can choose, the space race first, please. Normally a SS victory is a way to shorten a won game, I haven't seen a situation in which I really was glad to flea the planet in months. I'd love that!

DeepO

[Velociryx]

Thanks man! Hmmm...that got me thinking....what about a game setup that combines the two?

It'd mean another modern era war, but with a twist. No peace, and the only way to win is to launch the ship and get the heck offa the planet. The AI would be pounding you relentlessly with it's legions of bombers, and in this case, the damage to the infrastructure would really hurt, cos you'd desperately NEED the production to hang on for the win. You're hopelessly outgunned and outnumbered, meaning you gotta do a delicate balancing act....a series of sacrifices and strategic withdrawls till you can finish that ship and launch, all the while, nuking or otherwise sabatoging the AI's production of components.....howwzat sound?

-=Vel=-

[DeepO]

Sounds great, but looks to be a pain to set up. But the strategic implications of it... whew. I see me thinking already: do I need jets to shoot down bombers, nukes to cripple the AIs, or can I build a SS part for a change? Meanwhile, where do I get the money to research those techs I need, or steal them if possible? Trade is no option, as you are at war with everyone... hopefully the AIs do some warring between themselves too, or it will be near impossible to win this one. I love it (yes, I'm masochist from time to time, certainly when it comes to Civ)!

DeepO

[Velociryx]

This one, I think will need to wait till friday to set up (good thing that's tomorrow tho!) Be a good workout for the newly enhanced editor, methinks.

I envision a normal sized planet, with five civs. Your four rivals are at war with you, and two of them are at war with each other (which may, depending on AI MPP shenanigans) create a wider war between them.

I'll sandwich "our civ" between two behemoths, but give us some strategic choke points (one we'll still have posession of, and another that will have been recently lost....try and get it back? or set up another choke point? The first strategic decision).

Perhaps a small arsenal of nukes (2-3), a small fleet of bombers and a couple of fighters, perhaps 2 armies and a shell army to be configured any way the players wish. Most of our forces on the front will have taken damage (at least, I think I can make it so that they have taken damage), including the forces manning the fortresses at the choke points.

We'll prolly have about a dozen cities, with minimal corruption (similar to the Bab setup), and be surrounded by much larger and much better armed and equipped enemies.

As I see it, we'll all be about on par, tech-wise, but the AI will have completed at least two sections of the ship, while we've only just started our first segment. Should generate some interesting gameplay....

-=Vel=-

[jshelr]

Sorry. Ignore pls.

[Txurce]

The downside that I see with a space race game is that it is seemingly all about getting tech. The Alamo scenario is interesting, in that it's purely a tactical exercise against an overwhelming but poorly led force. Now what if you combine dthe two, so that the Alamo civ has one slim hope: escape to the stars?

To set this up, you may want to set up a small world, limit the number of civs to a very low number, and then do what you did last time - dig a hole for the Alamo civ. The catch would be to keep the huge AI civ(s) from going to space, instead of focusing on conquering the Alamo civ. The answer to this dilemma would be to mod the AI civs so they can't research the Apollo project: is that possible?

Other ideas that I had for different scenarios centered on handicapping mods as well, such as no coal or horses. Again, this would necessitate different tactics than fastmover blitzes.

[Velociryx]

Outstanding points! I'll start playing in the editor tonight, not to design the scenario, but rather, to see what might be possible. I know that it *would* be possible to make it such that the AI was unable to build the space ship, but the question is....do we want to?

Would it be more of a nailbiting experience to try and *race* the other civs into space, or would that be too much to contend with?

If we want the "race" aspect, then no modding of the BIC would be required, and in that case, we'd want to find some way of balancing the productive capacity of the AI civs, relative to the human player's so that there was some chance of succeeding (but probably not without a healthy combination of nuking, and spying to sabatoge production).

On the other hand, if we want the focus to be purely on the "survive til the ship is built" aspect, then what I could do is mod the BIC in such a way that one of the late game techs was removed, given no pre-requisites nor era, and assigned to the player as a starting bonus tech. That tech would be tied to the Apollo program and/or one or more ship components, preventing the AI from going to the stars. In that case, we would need to make the odds truly overwhelming (200:1 or more) and really turn the juice up.

I'd be happy to set it up either way....

-=Vel=-

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Vel's job just got a lot easier. 1.29F is out.

[DeepO]

Vel's job got easier? Nah, he still has to please us Being given the tools is one thing, but we still have to value the new challenge to the last one, and personally I found that one very hard to surpass... as said before, I wouldn't dare to take up the challenge, Babylon and on was huge...

Could it be possible to set up a game in which surviving is key, but don't limit the AIs in that they can also build their ship? The space race is fun, but only if there is a real race going on. Maybe a solution might be to allow conquest and domination for the AIs, while humans are forced (by mutual agreement) that they only win by a SS victory. I really love that race feeling, but just to make it not impossible you'd allow other victory types for the AI.

The choke points thing sounds fun, especially if you have one, and need to battle over the other one. It gives additional depth over the game, while part of the strategic goals are already laid out. But it still gives many opportunities for finding your own style in the game you play, this still is a strat-forum, and people want to compare how others are doing and learn from it. If there is only one way to succeed, all won games would be the same...

DeepO

[Velociryx]

Couldn't resist at least starting "Last stand at the Alamo" this very evening with the new editor! All I gotta say is....if all goes according to plan, you guys are gonna freakin LOVE this one...

So far, I've mapped out the following:

You are the United States of America, a proud, powerful nation in the southern portion of the world's main continent (standard sized world, with five civs on it).

Sadly, it is said that pride goeth before the fall, and this certainly seems to be the case. You have made enemies of all your world-power rivals (China, Russia, Germany, and Japan), and they're all out for blood. America has a navy that is stronger than any of her rivals individually, but which is dwarfed by the combined might of her enemies. She has stoutly fortified and defended strongholds on her frontiers, and troops watching all ways onto her shores. A strong airforce of quality planes (fighters and bombers) but probably fewer in number than is truly needed.

Her enemies want blood....nothing less than to destroy the great nation, and by degrees, they are doing just that. After a bitter nuclear exchange, a global ban was put on the weapons of mass destruction, and everyone's stockpiles were eliminated. This is a ban that none would forsake, save a desperate America.

In secret, she hid away a small arsenal of missiles, knowing that the day may come when they might be needed in the nation's darkest hour.

Fearing their ultimate destruction however, the leadership of the Americans drew up plans to build a mighty ship and flee to the stars, leaving the world to its own devices, and perhaps finally to escape the clutches of her tireless enemies. Sadly, those plans leaked out or were stolen, and now America's enemies are also racing for the stars. If they beat America into space, all is truly lost, and there will be no escaping. With enemies approaching on all fronts, and in overwhelming number, it is the nation's darkest hour.

Only one small hope remains....an American ship must launch into the vastness of space, and it must launch first.

The proud armed forces of the nation stand ready to fight the hopeless battle that will surely follow, in a desperate gamble to buy her men of science enough time to complete the massive ship so that at least some might survive.

The clock is ticking....

***

I've got the map drawn up, and America's cities laid out, along with the positions of her border fortifications. With luck, by tomorrow, I'll have all the other Civ's cities in place, and I'll start placing units. No worries about the AI building nonsense and outdated units. I've taken care to ensure that all the enemies of America have plenty of natural resources, so they'll be able to keep on building the good stuff.

As far as odds go, each of America's enemies will probably have something close to four times her land forces, double her air force, and about the same size (slightly smaller) navy. The AI will also have to build its own rail network, while America will start with rails pretty much everywhere. Additionally, I have ensured that one American city is set up with coal and iron in its production radius (Ironworks). This *should* give America the production advantages she needs to at least have a chance at catching up, and eventually building the ship, although the AI has sufficient numbers of workers at game start that they'll be able to rail themselves to pairity and beyond in a big hurry, so the advantage is a short term one, at best.

More work will follow tomorrow, but I wanted to give you guys the latest this evening before hitting the hay, to see if you think I'm on the right track with it.

-=Vel=-
Game note: Nukes have been banned by taking a tech at the far end of the tree, and setting it to no era and non-researchable. America has a small stockpile of ICBM's. Use them carefully....when they're gone, they're gone for good).

[Txurce]

Vel, sounds great.

[Velociryx]

Been working up some preliminary force totals, and here's kinna what I'm fiddling with....don't wince when you see the numbers, and try not to cry....

The Armed Forces of the United States of America:
Mechanized Infantry: 42 (16 cities, 2 in each city, the rest on the fronteir)
Modern Armor: 20
Artillery: 6

Fighters (F-15): 16
Bombers: 4
Stealth Fighters: 3
Stealth Bombers: 2

BB: 2
CV: 2
CA:8
DD: 16
TRAN: 0
AEGIS: 4
SUB:4

****
The Armed Forces of The Rus

Mechanized Infantry:230
Modern Armor: 60
Artillery: 42

Fighters: 14
Bombers: 4
Stealth Fighters: 0
Stealth Bombers: 0

BB: 1
CV: 1
CA:10
DD: 6
TRAN: 6
AEGIS: 0
SUB:6

****

The Armed forces of China
Mechanized Infantry:320
Modern Armor: 100
Artillery: 18

Fighters: 16
Bombers: 6
Stealth Fighters: 0
Stealth Bombers: 0

BB: 1
CV: 0
CA:4
DD: 10
TRAN: 4
AEGIS: 0
SUB:2

The Armed Forces of Japan

Mechanized Infantry:170
Modern Armor: 65
Artillery: 26

Fighters: 12
Bombers: 12
Stealth Fighters: 0
Stealth Bombers: 0

BB: 1
CV: 0
CA:6
DD: 14
TRAN: 4
AEGIS: 0
SUB:4

*****
The Armed Forces of Germany
Mechanized Infantry: 175
Modern Armor: 130
Artillery: 56

Fighters: 14
Bombers: 8
Stealth Fighters: 0
Stealth Bombers: 0

BB: 2
CV: 1
CA:8
DD: 16
TRAN: 4
AEGIS: 0
SUB:6

Yeah....that should make for a decent scrap!

-=Vel=-

[DeepO]

Vel, you sadist; I want to escape this world already
Could you explain your abreviations, please? I know what Brigitte Bardot is doing there, but who are CV, CA and DD?
Further, how many nukes are you planning to give to us? And where do you see us tech wise? It looks to become a great challenge!

DeepO

[Velociryx]

I'm seeing 5 ICBM's. I'll actually give six, and when the scenario is complete, I'll play one turn, plant spies everywhere, and then start the festivities by nuking an AI worker...LOL...that way we don't actually hurt them much, but everybody should declare against us....

-=Vel=-