Testing the Jaguar Warrior

[Aeson]

Went back and checked what the Iroquois had improved at the start of the war. 10 Tiles roaded (including the Wines, and a Worker about to finish another road), 3 with Mines (Worker starting on a Mine), and one Irrigated. All pillaged now.

[Aeson]

I kept at War with the Iroquois clear until 1025BC. Was trying to see how well Jags did at Leader farming. Fought a war each with the Inca (they demanded Map Making, thanks for the negative war weariness) and the Americans (they finally built a Worker, so I pillaged two tiles and made peace for the Worker).

I was floating at about 5-6 Elite Jags while Leader farming, killing off Reg Archers the Iroquois were sending out. I was attacking first with a Vet Jag, getting promotions or at least denting the Archer, then finishing off with an Elite if the Vet had lost or retreated. Got a Leader on my 7th kill with an Elite, then bunched my Jags and destroyed the Iroquois Horse city. Had a Vet Jag retreat, then a Vet Jag kill a Spearman, then a Vet Jag die and 2 Elite Jags die, then killed the second Spearman with an Elite Jag. That left the Iroquois with 3 cities, and they gave 2 of them to me for peace.

[alexman]

Another Aeson classic.

Well, this probably proves that the JW is still very powerful in the hands of the best player in the World, and everyone else still has lots to learn.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
Well, this probably proves that the JW is still very powerful in the hands of the best player in the World, and everyone else still has lots to learn.

You're forgetting the great Sid himself...

[Aeson]

I was a bit suprised how well Jags worked. I have a suspicion they may even work on Sid difficulty. At least as well as any civ can 'work' on Sid. The AI SOD's will be bigger but still can't touch you if you can find some open space on their borders. Hard part will be getting the AI's to sign peace.

High river maps probably help the Aztec more than anyone else. As an Agricultural civ you of course want them in your territory. As the Aztecs you even want rivers in your neighbors territory. Rivers magnify the Jags movement bonus, allowing you to easily set up SOD ping pongs, and keep the number of Jags needed back home lower.

Good terrain for your neighbors isn't something to fear with Jags either. The Americans had an excellent starting location foodwise but their REX was nullified completely. The Iroquois were going to be relatively tough to crack if they were allowed to freely expand until Swords and Horses were available.

The Aztec also benefit more from culturally linked starts than probably anyone. No Scientific civs means no AI's with lots of spare Spearmen running around. It also should give you a chance to hit a neighbor at decent odds early on (at least up to Emperor) if you were to go with a Jag rush. The only downside is that Chasqui (especially the 30 shield ATAR ones) are one of the two units that could deal with Jags effectively in the hands of the AI. Impi are probably something you want to avoid like the plague. At 10 shields there was some chance Jags would beat Impi, but at 15 I don't think fighting Impi could be efficient. If the Zulu are your neighbors, pillage or attack a Reg Warrior defended town very early, and make peace when they get BW. Do throw away a Jag to start their GA first though.

I'd say that the Aztec also benefit almost as much as an expansionist civ from low barbarian settings, and maybe the most from no barbarians at all. It slows down the tech rate if no one is popping huts, allows you to REX without tying up Jags if there are no barbarian camps, and the AI keeps their SOD's at home instead of out hitting barbarian camps. All things which extend the life of the Jags or make using them safer.

So this map was seemingly perfect to highlight every advantage you can get from a Jag (and Aztecs in general). The advantage of the Jag is certainly the ability to wage unconventional warfare while building up units towards a Sword rush. Quite possible (~Emperor) to have an Army waiting to fill with Swords as soon as you can get them. I had 9 Elite battles (lost 2) in that timeframe. Used the leader for the FP though, but if another strong neighbor was around a Sword army would definitely have been a priority.

One thing which may or may not be a plus depending on your perspective is that the AI likes to pop rush when you have a unit within attacking distance of their city. I thought the AI was building Settlers, but it turns out they were pop rushing Spears and Archers. This amplifies the amount of damage being done to the AI tremendously, but also negates much of the value you can take from an AI.

[Arrian]

I love reading Aeson's accounts of how he mangled the poor, unwitting AI. It's like reading the memoirs of a criminal mastermind or something. Keyser Soze!

Given that I never really got the hang of using Jags in PTW*, I'm not really qualified to chime in about their usefulness. On the other hand, an AU course involving them might do me good.

-Arrian

* - Like Nathan, I despise a despotic GA. I want to be in republic, and to have a chance to pump my cities' pop up before triggering it. So all I ever really tried to do with Jags was what Aeson did to the Americans: steal workers and break things, without fighting battles. I wasn't as good at that as he is, though. I never really did it well, or at least never felt I had.

[Aqualung71]

Just read Aeson's report.

I am truly stunned.

[Theseus]

Aeson, you, uh, damn... continue to surprise and impress.

You are too darned good, though, for the point of this discussion. I had the same reaction as Thriller... *stunned*, and think I know a thing or two about playing this game.

Two thoughts:

1) We still need to test JWs at different cost, as Aeson's report is too far from the norm.

2) We need to plan for an AU game that will test Aeson's expertise and 'out of the box' thinking... I'm tired and prolly rambling here, but, without putting Aeson on the spot (I'd throw in Vel too), once we are used to C3C, we should think of a challenging AU course that *requires* the innovative kind of approach that Aeson just exhibited in Nathan's JW test game.

Jesu, I'd like to re-iterate: Aeson, you rock, you are the bomb, we are not worthy. Would you consider, maybe, [oh, this *might* be a great idea!] a PHD course for those of us needing such?

[alexman]

Originally posted by Theseus
1) We still need to test JWs at different cost, as Aeson's report is too far from the norm.

I'm not sure I agree. Aeson's execution of his JW strategy was brilliant, but he used the unit exactly as he and others were arguing it should be used before playing this test game.

I'll say it again: Making changes to balance the game for lower levels of play when it's already balanced at higher levels of play is not part of the mod's philosophy. To make the most out of the Jaguar Warrior, we should try to master Aeson's strategy instead of changing the unit to fit own level of play!

[ducki]

Originally posted by alexman
I'll say it again: Making changes to balance the game for lower levels of play when it's already balanced at higher levels of play is not part of the mod's philosophy.

Additionally, comparing a unit with identical stats but different costs will have only one conclusion, which Dominae has pointed out - cheaper is better.

We don't have a control group and any results or conclusions will be fuzzy - Aeson's skill just accentuates that fact without invalidating or affirming either side. Yes, if you play to the strength's of your Civ(UU included) you will do well. If you fight against your Civ's natural tendencies/abilities, you will have a harder time. Aeson just does a great job of recognizing and exploiting(in the good way) whatever Civ he plays.

That's just my opinion, I could be a turnip-brain.

[pvzh]

ducki:I definitely agree with that. So is Feudalism and/or 2+ gov switches, though not all once, hehe.

Thriller:I think a JW/Feudalism/Govt switch AU course all combined would be great!

* Humbly, points out that there is such game *

Power of Feudalism

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by pvzh

* Humbly, points out that there is such game *

Power of Feudalism

Yes I know you had set up that game pvzh, though unfortunately for me I had 2 others going at the same time. I was thinking of an "official" AU game, but there's probably no need now.

[Theseus]

I've been playing pvzh's game... lots fun.

Back to this discussion:

So what are we then saying... advise newer players that Aztecs, or more properly, their UU, are only for advanced expertise?

That's kinda silly, IMHO.

[alexman]

I wouldn't advise them that, but I might try to explain the best way to take advantage of Jags (if I were Aeson ), and perhaps every player can use them properly. It's still easier at lower levels.

[sabrewolf]

aeson just never stops to surprise and impress me. always when i think i've heard of every strategy, up comes another one. "so cold", the "AU501-no military unit until marines"-strategy, this one here... and dozens of other ones i've forgotton to mention but deserve it just as much.

i don't think sid meier planned civ3 to be this deep, but obviously there's no situation without a aesonian strategy

i'd really like to see a match between bamspeedy (aka. the 80+ MGL-guy@beyond sid) and aeson