Testing the Jaguar Warrior

[nbarclay]

In case anyone else wants to give it a try (at least far enough to see how the Jaguar Warrior works out), I'm posting a test game I started to see how good a use I could make of Jaguar Warriors. It's on a standard map with eight civs, Emperor level, and using the standard rules rather than the AU Mod. The challenge: how much value can you get out of your Jaguar warriors, and at what cost to your REXing? I'll be interested to see whether, if several people try this, the Jaguar Warrior works consistently well or whether some players end up having their attempt to use their Jags backfire. Note that we've had some discussion regarding how to get the most out of Jags in the thread on that unit, and I'm sure there's been a good bit of other discussion (albeit at least mostly based on the earlier 10-shield version) elsewhere on Apolyton.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

I just realized the attachment didn't attach correctly. Oops.

[ducki]

- I checked all 3 likely forums before going back to pvzh's game. I'll take a look at this one "soon".

[Dominae]

Nathan, maybe we should make this the next AU course? The theme would be "The Power of the Early/Despotic GA" or something like that. Using the Aztecs would be a natural choice, and would shed some light on our recent debate.


Dominae

[ducki]

Does that mean we're ready for the next course?

[Dominae]

I'm not really sure. I'm just saying that this is too good a topic for a course not to make it official.


Dominae

[ducki]

I definitely agree with that. So is Feudalism and/or 2+ gov switches, though not all once, hehe.

[lethe]

Is a despotic GA worth it on a map bigger than small? I can see a value in it if you are going for an extreme early conquest, and got a good Ancient UU. (Can we say Iroquis?)

Maybe I am missing something though. Or my die hard habit of taking a GA either at the start of Middle Ages or the Industrial Age just after Hoover is built.

[Dominae]

The point of the course would be to answer that very question, lethe.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

With the Jaguar Warrior no longer an effective combat unit in C3C, I see no reason to view the Aztecs as a natural choice for deliberately triggering an early GA. In my game, I did some early raiding with Jags without triggering my GA, then spent quite a while building up my forces, and then did my fighting with catapult/swordsmen stacks using largely swordsmen upgraded from warriors and Jags. (At some production levels, building Jags for upgrade makes more sense than building warriors.) I took out almost all of America shortly before I switched to Republic, but didn't trigger my GA until I was ready to fight the Iroquois after the switch. An Iroquois archer was escorting a settler through my territory, and pinging the archer down to one hit point with cats gave my surviving regular Jag an easy victory to trigger my GA.

The paradigm that the Aztecs are "supposed" to trigger an early GA and use it to rush their enemies is left over from previous versions, where the Jag was a potent military weapon in the early game. The new paradigm in C3C is that Jags should probably generally risk triggering an unwanted GA to do some raiding against neighbors, but that if the player can succeed in avoiding triggering a GA with the raids, the Aztecs' GA can be triggered about as early or late as the player wants (as long as it comes before the AIs get Replaceable Parts).
A big piece of the Aztecs' special flavor is gone.

[Dominae]

I think we should each play the scenario and come to our own conclusions. I'm sure we could all list off the virtues of Seafaring before playing AU501, but that did not invalidate the course. Given that Jags are such a debated issue, this should prove to be an interesting exercise.

I, for one, am not prepared to accept your conclusions about the Aztecs without some corroboration. Your aversion to the despotic GA clouds your judgement in this case, IMO; given the opportunity, you'll always delay your GA. The point of this course would be to test whether this is always the best thing to do.


Dominae

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by ducki
I definitely agree with that. So is Feudalism and/or 2+ gov switches, though not all once, hehe.

I think a JW/Feudalism/Govt switch AU course all combined would be great!

There are so many issues to consider in the governments debate and tweaks are often far-reaching. It may take several goes to "get it right" and this may be a good place to start and then re-open the debate with what we learn.

[Aeson]

Well, not having actually used the Jags in C3C, I figured I should have a stab at this and see if they still worked.

Started out roading and mining the coastal Bonus Grassland. 100% research - whatever was needed for Luxuries, towards The Wheel as the Iroquois are Commercial now and a likely neighbor. No Japan, so The Wheel is almost a no brainer.

First build is a Jag. I debated whether or not to build a Barracks first, but my first Jag was meant for no fighting at all. Find a neighbor, capture any free Workers, and pillage whatever I could guarantee (within reason) wouldn't result in a fight.

I also debated about whether to mine the Bonus Grasslands or not. In Civ/PtW I wouldn't, as the GA was going to be going from almost day one. In the case of an early GA, you don't need to road the river tiles except for in need of movement points either. I wasn't sure how quickly I was going to use Jags militarily (playing with the hopes of conquering 2 neighbors with them eventually), so I went with a more conventional terrain improvement.

My first Jag found America real quick. Normally it would be a bit slower, and I was a little nervous attacking so close to home so early. Their Workers split up the turn I saw them, giving no chance to capture both in one shot. Set up next to the Worker roading the Wines, and capture it next turn, retreating to safety. The Worker started heading back home, and the Jag moved North through American territory to draw the starting unit SOD that way.

This was the moment of truth, as I didn't know if the C3C AI would react like their Civ/PtW cousins. To make a long story short, C3C AI aren't any smarter. My first Jag was able to keep the American forces north of their capitol all by himself for the next 14 turns before a friendly Jag showed up to the West and the fun really started. If you have a unit in or next to AI territory, they seem intent on killing that unit or scaring it away. Even if your cities back home are 7 tiles distant and have no garrisons at all! Jag's movement becomes a killer in this situation. I rotated using a Jag on the West to pull all the free units that way, while pillaging the tiles to the East, and back and forth they marched.

America is dead for all intents and purposes at 2750BC. 1 Tile survives unpillaged, they have no Workers, and no second city (I think they do have a Settler in their city though). For peace I traded them The Wheel and Warrior Code for their other Worker, Bronze Working, and Masonry. I had previously traded the Iroquois Warrior Code for Alphabet and 20 gold.

The American war resulted in a captured American Worker, 4 pillaged tiles, and a peace treaty in my favor by about 200 gold. (The actual trade was more even, but they were willing to give up Bronze Working for free, and almost Bronze Working and the Worker). Back home I have 2 cities, both with Barracks.

I haven't gotten any units to the Iroquois territory yet. Apparent from where their Warriors showed up that they are somewhere to the West. Hope to beat them into submission so I never have to see a MW... gotta get a move on though! They don't have The Wheel yet, so I have time to hopefully scope out their territory and make sure they never get Horses.

[Aeson]

I caught an Incan Scout wandering by. Not something restricted to Jags, but a Jag did kill it.

The 'war' started off badly for me, the Inca didn't think I was very strong and wouldn't even sign peace for Alphabet. Oh well. Here's the deal after the Inca finally found me with 2 Reg Warriors, which I killed between 3 Vet Jags. I had already finished Philosophy (took Map Making), so I wanted them to have Writing anyways. Going to have to have someone strong on my continent to trade with...

[Aeson]

I had gone ahead with plans to attack the Iroquois. I didn't really want to be fighting 2 wars at once, but from what I knew of the landmass there was no way the Inca were going to make much noise. Set it up so the first turn I had 3 Vet Jags able to hit a Reg Warrior/Settler pair, and 2 Jags (one shared with the other group) set to capture 2 Workers.

Things went well as I was able to capture the Settler with 2 of the Jags, first one retreating. Then I captured the 2 Workers. I'd say the Iroquois were beaten right there. They did have Iron Working though, and so I was going to make sure that they didn't get a road on any Hills or Mountains, and to keep their Horses clear. (easily done as they won't send out Workers when a military unit is threatening)

Had 2 other Jags sliding in from the South, and they played ping pong with the Iroquois units. Made a few mistakes and got attacked 3 times (retreat, dead, elite), but was able to pillage every last tile the Iroquois had improved. Also killed 2 Reg Warriors and 2 Reg Archers so far, always using 2 Vet Jags at least per unit. So far I've lost 1 Jag attacking, had a few retreat at times, and gained another 2 Elite Jag on offense (one was from attacking the Incan units). Sadly one of of my Elites was the Jag that got killed when I left it open to attack (could have covered it with a Vet, but would have lost a chance to pillage a tile), wrongly thinking they wouldn't attack it on a mountain with 2 HP's. So only 2 Elites running around right now.

The GA has worked well, as I was able to get a 4 turn Worker factory up a couple Settlers early. THis has allowed me to keep ahead of the Inca in number of cities. At 1550BC I have 7 cities, 1 Settler going to found another in 2 turns. 3 native Workers, 5 captured, 11 Jags, and a Spearman. (was getting nervous )

The Iroquois have 4 size 1 cities, no tile improvement, no Workers, and only a few Warriors left. They'll give me the one city without a resource for peace, but really don't have anythign I want. Probably will stack my Jags and follow their Palace around capturing cities.

The Americans have founded another city now... still only 1 terrain improvement. Ran a Jag through just cause I was curious how long it would take them to get a Worker out.