AU mod: Philosophy

[alexman]

The problem:

The free technology granted by Philosophy in C3C has added a 'no-brainer' decision to technology research: If you have the opportunity to learn Philosophy before all other civilizations, you should always try to do so.

The Republic beeline has become a very strong strategy, and with some planning (and AI incompetence) it's even possible to get a free tech almost 5 times more expensive than Philosophy itself.

The new power of Philosophy has the effect of making hard difficulty levels harder, and easy ones easier. The early-game (where philosophy is available) is not where Sid-level AI needs help. In games where the human is at tech parity with the AI, the human has the advantage because he realizes the value of philosophy.

Possible Solution:

Make Philosophy an optional tech. This would diminish the value of Philosophy, especially when your goal is to reach the Middle Ages as fast as possible. However, skipping Philosophy would not be your best option if you hope to get the Mausoleum of Mausollos and/or into Republic ASAP.

A side effect of making Philosophy optional would be that Feudalism might become useful more often, as you will be able to reach the middle ages sooner and choose Feudalism as your first non-Despotic government when you are still expanding.

If the above change is adopted, the value of Philosophy would also have to be increased in the eyes of the AI to compensate for the loss of value due to being optional.

Do you agree that Philosophy is too strong in C3C? Do you have any other ideas for balancing the power of a free technology? Please share!

[lockstep]

My first thought: Yet another thread about the philosophy of the AU mod?

My first thought on topic: A very interesting idea. So far I don't smell unintended side-effects, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. Don't mark your proposal as 'under consideration' for at least two weeks.

Looking forward to the discussion.

[Risa]

Interesting idea. I like this one.

[Rhothaerill]

I've somewhat stayed away from commenting on the AU mod so far, but my thought about the philosophy free tech is "I wish they hadn't added it back in". Yes it is a good strategy for the human player...but it is a very one-dimensional strategy. If the "correct" play is to always go on a philosphy beeline then it doesn't make for good strategic decision-making. I'm to the point where in SP games I just ignore philosophy until I'm ready for it, even if I miss out on the free tech. The "correct" play is just too limiting in this instance

I haven't toyed with the editor that much, but a possible solution (if it can be done which I do not know and have not yet checked) is remove the free tech flag.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
I haven't toyed with the editor that much, but a possible solution (if it can be done which I do not know and have not yet checked) is remove the free tech flag.

Yes, it could be done. But I like alexman's solution better because a) it is closer to (C3C) stock rules and b) it really seems to strengthen the Feudalism government option somewhat. (And I still don't smell any side-effects.)

(BTW, Vanilla Civ3 / PtW stock rules vs. C3C stock rules - I really wonder how nbarclay would comment your suggestion. )

[Theseus]

I'm with Rhothy, in a way... the free tech is just too damn powerful (esp. if SGL generation is possible).

But I don't want to stray too far from stock. I think alexman's suggestion is a very good place to start.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Theseus
I'm with Rhothy, in a way... the free tech is just too damn powerful ....

Free techs are always too powerful (ToE, anyone ).

One problem with making Philosophy an optional tech is that there is the possibility (maybe remote, but...) that my free tech can now be one from the Middle Ages (this is assuming I reach the Middle Ages and no one has researched Philosophy, thus allowing me to grab it first). Is that too powerful?

[alexman]

Good job thinking of exploits!

But isn't that already possible? What happens if you research Philosophy last in the Ancient Age?

[sabrewolf]

i don't think that could be a problem. if no AI has researched philosophy, the human surely has!

[vulture]

What happens if you research philosophy last in the ancient age, and are scientific?

If the free tech is so powerful, why is scientific one of the worst-rated traits? Or is that just because there is generally more than one scientific civ in the world, and the free techs (aside from the middle ages) come when there is already a spread in levels of advancement.

I've never seen a situation yet when philosophy wasn't researched by the AI fairly early on, but we'd have to see how that changed if it was made an optional tech. I suspect people would still go for republic as the free tech though (assuming they had code of laws already), since as a government tech, it is far more valuable to the AI in trade than any of the first-tier medieval techs IIRC.

[alexman]

Originally posted by vulture
If the free tech is so powerful, why is scientific one of the worst-rated traits?

The main reason is because you don't get to choose your free tech as a scientific civ. That's why the game would be so much more balanced if Philosophy and the ToE gave random free techs.

By the way, I don't agree that scientific is one of the worst traits, especially in C3C.

[vulture]

Alexman: Actually, nor do I - I think the traits are all fairly well balanced, except for the map-dependence of expansionist. Still haven't played with the new traits yet though. But there does seem to be a fairly common opinion around that scientific is one of the weaker ones, which wouldn't happen if the scientific free tech was overpowered.

You may be right that having the tech randomly assigned makes most of the difference though. Not sure I'd like that on the ToE - it just revives memories from vanilla civ3 of getting Music Theory and Free Artistry as the ToE techs

[Arrian]

If you can change it to a random tech, I'd say do that.

That way, if you beeline, you could be risking getting something like bronze working as the freebie. Still not a bad thing, of course, but nothing like getting CoL, or even pulling of Nathan's favorite: republic, having researched CoL prior to Philo.

-Arrian

[ducki]

A side effect of making Philosophy optional would be that Feudalism might become useful more often, as you will be able to reach the middle ages sooner and choose Feudalism as your first non-Despotic government when you are still expanding.

Would this reinforce the "AIs at higher levels get there first and at lower levels don't have a chance" issue? I'm asking, not being rhetorical.

possible to get a free tech almost 5 times more expensive than Philosophy itself

Maybe there's a solution hidden in the problem... Philo is too cheap and too important.

I say make it optional AND expensive to research - like 150% or more expensive than now. I've got yet another Emp. start (still practicing pumps) where I'm on track to snag Philo again with a less well-developed start, though I do have a settler pump. That just seems wrong.


Or maybe move the free tech to a last-stage tech(optionally last-stage optional - Lit(maybe), Mon, Rep).
The only way to make Mon and Rep not brutally expensive to research is to let the AI get there first - could restore some "strategy" to the who Monarchy vs. Republic issue and restore some variety of choice based on Traits. Or maybe not. I don't like this idea as much as the Optional+Expensive idea, but wanted to throw it out there.

Last suggestion - move the free tech from Philo to Mausollos. So you have to research AND build, so even if the tech is "cheap" compared to the freebie, you still have to make the decision to divert shields into a wonder instead of units/improvements/etc.


One last thought on random vs choosable, not directly ontopic:

the game would be so much more balanced if Philosophy and the ToE gave random free techs

As long as we're getting to participate in the betatesting of the patch and Jesse and crew are making editor changes, I wonder how much trouble it would be for them to make an extra option - one for "Gives Free Choosable Tech" and a separate one for "Give Free Random Tech". Low priority for them, but could possibly do a lot to balance the obvious(albeit level dependent) beelines. Maybe they can even use the same algorithm that Sci civs use for their tech.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by ducki
Last suggestion - move the free tech from Philo to Mausollos. So you have to research AND build ...

This is not possible with the current editor.