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AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline

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  • AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline

    The problem

    While Civ3's first two ages provide some interesting research choices for the human player (e.g. following the monotheism line vs. the engineering line in the middle ages), at the beginning of the industrial age there's only one obvious choice: Beelining for Scientific Method and (pre-)building Theory of Evolution, then taking Atomic Theory and Electronics as free techs and building Hoover Dam. The typical ToE - Hoover beeline will involve researching the necessary techs plus Industrialization (for rushing a factory and a Coal Plant in the cities that will build the wonders), sometimes also plus Nationalism (if there's the threat of a cavalry attack by a powerful AI). After finishing Hoover, the human player normally has a huge production advantage and effectively won the game (that is, if he didn't already win by a cavalry blitz.)

    Taking a closer look, the most unbalancing factor seems to be neither the possibility to get/enlarge a tech lead by building ToE (although this is a very attractive strategy) nor the option to use ToE's free techs for securing an advantage to build Hoover (although a free hydro plant in every city isn't that bad, either). The crucial point, IMO, are the tech costs. Atomic Theory and Electronics have costs of 200 and 180, and therefore are the most expensive techs that a player is likely to have as research options when he finishes ToE. (Radio, Flight and Advanced Flight are the only industrial techs that are also that expensive, and they show up much later in the tech tree). Choosing any techs but A.T./El. as free techs means wasting a huge amount of 'free' research, and therefore taking the A.T./El. route - and building Hoover - becomes the obvious choice. There are some alternatives that would be attractive in principle (e.g. going for The Corporation and building a lot of stock exchanges), but as long as there's the issue of 'wasted' free research, the human player will postpone these alternatives.

    Possible Solution

    Reduce the cost of Atomic Theory and Electronics by 60 each (A.T. from 200 to 140, El. from 180 to 120). Correspondingly, increase the costs of The Corporation and Replacable Parts by 60 each (C. from 100 to 160, R.P. from 140 to 200). This makes The Corporation (which gives stock exchanges) and Replacable Parts (which gives Infantry, Artillery and double worker speed) the two most expensive techs that a player can get for free with ToE. Now going for A.T./El. because of Hoover means wasting free research. This should make for some really interesting choices.

    What do you think?
    "As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW

  • #2
    Good topic.

    Given your solution, I think I'd take Replaceable Parts and Atomic Theory and then pour all my research into Electronics will doing a prebuild. Too bad the AI can't think like that.

    I may get burned as a heretic, but what if we use the changes you suggest and slightly reduce the cost of ToE but only grant one tech instead of two? That way the tech advantage doesn't become so drastic.

    Edit: Ok, I just noticed it's two or nothing in the editor. For seem reason I was thinking if Philosophy grants one, then a wonder could too.
    "Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
    "I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
    "Stuie is right...." - Guynemer

    Comment


    • #3
      A wonder that grants one free advance isn't possible with the current editor. (Philosophy grants a free advance, but it is a tech.)

      EDIT: And yet another cross-post.
      "As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW

      Comment


      • #4
        hm ..... you got me thinking. how about something more radical, like moving Scientific methods tech much earlier, say after Theory of Gravity, and make it non-compulsory to get to Industrial Age !

        So, it becomes a trade-off. If you go for ToE, you get 2 Techs, likely to be Steam Engines, Nationalism (or Industralisation).

        If you don't go for Scientific Methods, you can aim straight for Steam Engines.

        C3C ISDG Final Round : Actively Lurking

        Comment


        • #5
          I am already labled a heretic regarding the AU for suggesting radical changes, so it doesn't hurt me one twiddly to do it again:

          Take out Hoover Dam altogether. The vast majority of the time the player gets it. It only makes the game that much easier.

          Oh, and thanks for the inspiration!

          Comment


          • #6
            It's not just that Atomic Theory and Electronics are more expensive, it's also that the AI didn't researched them. This meant that the ToE could allow a human who was far more than 2 techs behind the AI to trade back up to parity. This could be enough to secure the UN against bigger AIs if they are at war and so to win from a fair way behind.

            In the PTW AU mod, we made tha AI more likely to research Atomic theory which was enough to hurt this if they are far enough ahead and give them a chance at Hoover in the same position.

            The AI would still research Replaceable Parts with your change but I'm less sure about the Corporation. I doubt it would be a good idea if they all went down the Electronics branch first.

            Maybe we could just do the change to Atomic Theory and Replaceable Parts? Then to get the best free techs, you'd have to research Atomic theory first which would mean delaying ToE. If the AI were strong, that might not be worth the risk.

            Comment


            • #7
              I am not sure this is a big problem. If I build Hoover I think I deserve to win, it is the only way I can overcome the AI huge production advantage at Emporer or Diety....

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Nor Me
                Maybe we could just do the change to Atomic Theory and Replaceable Parts? Then to get the best free techs, you'd have to research Atomic theory first which would mean delaying ToE. If the AI were strong, that might not be worth the risk.
                I wanted to do two things:

                a) swapping tech costs so that going for Atomic Theory AND Electronics would mean a lot of wasted 'free' research,
                b) avoiding a situation where it is easy for the player to research these techs WHILE he is building ToE.

                Because of b), I didn't want to make A.T. as cheap as Sanitation - this is the tech I often research when I build ToE in my capital (and therefore can't use a palace pre-build). But if a player delays finishing the ToE on purpose and manages to research Atomic Theory, he should - im my opinion - still face 'wasted' research when choosing Electronics as one of the two free techs. That's why I proposed to also reduce the costs of El. vs. Replacable Parts (which is an obvious candidate for a cost increase) AND a second tech. For this, I chose The Corporation because it will almost always be available when ToE is finished.
                "As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW

                Comment


                • #9
                  every removed human exploit makes the AI need less cheating or starting advantages.

                  some of the worst exploits like RCP, polytheism gambits have been solved or at least weakened.
                  some just as bad exploits (eg. MT beelining, suicide galleys, resource bombarding, etc) are hopefully going to be solved with the AU mod.

                  this ToE==>Hoover Dam ('==>' is the mathematical sign for "implies" ) exploit is another one to be solved.

                  seeing darwin's theory of evolution (a biological/philosophic achievement) burned for an economical (corporation) or industrial (replacable parts) tech, is just as wierd as for atomic theory and electronics.

                  however, i support lockstep's idea!
                  - Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity
                  - Atheism is a nonprophet organization.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    After much thought, here's my suggestion:
                    Hoover Dam requires airport


                    Without possesion of the upper tech branch to build an airport, you will lose some motivation to get Electronics with the ToE. The expensive techs offer no units or buildings (except hyrdo plans), and lead to a dead end for a while. Also, you have to go for the upper branch if you want to get a small prebuild for Hoover.

                    The end effect will be that Hoover will built much later, and likely without much of a prebuild. This helps the AI, who doesn't rely on factories (or prebuilds) as much as the human.

                    So I think it makes sense in terms of game play, just don't ask me to provide justification based on history... Fine, here's my lame attempt: didn't Las Vegas have an airport when the Hoover Dam was built? OK, I give up. Where does it say that the AU mod must make sense in terms of realsim?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I always research A.T. while building ToE (no prebuild), and get Electronics and Radio for free. While all AI research Nationalism branch and then to Refining. AI research Replacable Parts after that, and I do that before Scientific Method.

                      So, I think blocking Corporation may be a good idea, but blocking Replacable Parts are not. Without infantries, AI have not much hope against player's attack force, even with modded defense-7 riflemen.

                      Haven't test, but I image alexman's idea will work good ingame.
                      However, it doesn't make sense!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Risa
                        I always research A.T. while building ToE (no prebuild), and get Electronics and Radio for free.
                        Interesting ... I assumed that it was not possible to research A.T. at its current cost (200) without considerably delaying ToE, and that it would still be hard to do with A.T. costs of 140.

                        Going for Electronics and Radio (the latter costing 200) means that, under my proposal, there's only a tiny amount of wasted 'free' research. Granted, Radio isn't necessary for the beeline to Motorized Transportation, but it's still a very attractive route. So maybe another tech cost swap is in order: Radio from 200 to 140, Motorized Transportation from 140 to 200.

                        I think blocking Corporation may be a good idea, but blocking Replacable Parts are not. Without infantries, AI have not much hope against player's attack force, even with modded defense-7 riflemen.
                        IMO, Replacable Parts would be still attractive enough for the AI to go for it ASAP even at costs of 200. But if playtesting shows that this is not true, an alternative would be to increase its costs only slightly (say, to 160), but also increase the costs of Refining and/or Steel. This would still save my basic idea that going for the A.T./El. 'free tech route' must equal to a lot of wasted 'free' research.

                        Haven't test, but I image alexman's idea will work good ingame.
                        However, it doesn't make sense!
                        Alexman's proposal does in fact mean 'Hoover Dam is available with Electronics AND FLIGHT'. To put it another way - don't let yourself fool by the little Hoover Dam icon that your Science Advisor will display at Electronics.

                        IMO, a more comprehensable way for the idea 'Hoover needs the lower AND upper tech branch' would be to choose Motorized Transportation or Advanced Flight as its prerequisite. And yes, this also doesn't make sense in terms of realism.
                        "As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by alexman
                          After much thought, here's my suggestion:
                          Hoover Dam requires airport
                          It would be a good idea for the AI to build it in time for the space race if given an opportunity. The AI normally starts building a wonder straight away but I've seen them without airports well into the modern age. In the last OCC I played, I had an aluminium colony on the largest continent but couldn't build any space parts because the AIs on it didn't have any harbours or airports.

                          This really helps the human who knows about prebuilding improvements and rushing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            How about having it require oil? That would probably be a lot less likely to sabotage an AI than requiring a building would. It would also make getting Electronics with ToE and planning a prebuild for when Refining is researched a bit dangerous because there's no guarantee that oil will be available. That would also make the timing a bit more historically appropriate.

                            Note that for better and for worse, delaying Hoover will seriously undermine the strategy of foregoing coal plants in favor of waiting to get free hydro plants. On the other hand, if we keep the modification of making Longevity available with Sanitation, devaluing Hoover a little will be a good thing.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nbarclay
                              How about having it require oil?
                              Call me a purist, but I don't like the idea. Until now, when a Great Wonder requires a resource (Statue of Zeus - Ivory, Manhattan Project - Uranium), the resource is either available from the beginning or becomes available with the same tech that enables the wonder. So, if you want Hoover to be available later, change its position in the tech tree.
                              "As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW

                              Comment

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