AU mod: Cavalry

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
AU seems to be aimed at fixing via small tweaks with as few and as little changes as possible. Changing/adding graphics is way beyond this, IMO. If you want your own graphics you can add them yourself, but the official AU should be barebones changes.

If we could accomplish in practice what we want at the conceptual level - "The same type of unit gets more powerful when the player discovers Nationalism" - I would agree with you 100%. But since the upgrade process will involve ending a turn in a city with barracks (with at least one light cavalry having movement left), what we will actually have is a situation where two distinct types of units with two distinct attack values will exist at the same time. Having those two distinct types of units share a graphic is not, in my opinion, a good thing.

The graphical change being discussed is not something we're considering for its own sake, but rather is a way of reducing the visual confusion that would otherwise exist from having light and regular cavalry look the same. Since there is a suitable graphic to address the situation already in C3C, one that is not used by any of the standard civs, we have a potential way out of the problem of having two distinct unit types share a graphic.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by ZargonX
Regarding the graphical changes, using the included Austrian unit graphic is probably the most optimal solution to help maintain the "bare bones" feel of the AU mod. However, what that doesn't cover is the issue of having potentially 2 Sipahai units and 2 Cossack units. Repeated graphics might not be a problem when you are playing as one of those civs, as you will be aware of your own UU. But when playing the AI, it may become confusing for some if one of the UU versions shares the same graphic as a regular cav. unit. Before we delve too much further into graphical discussions, this is something that must be taken into account.

I would suggest having cossacks and sipahi exchange graphics for their light versions. In other words, a light sipahi would look like a cossack and a light cossack would look like a sipahi. That would create a bit of confusion (players would have to go by color rather than unit type to determine nationality when both civs are present), but the combination of color and unit type would uniquely identify the unit.

By the way, the mention of AI units brings up another problem with having light and regular versions of a unit share a graphic. With separate graphics, it would be easy to tell what kind of AI unit you're looking at even if it moves into and out of vision (or dies) during the course of a turn. But with the same graphic, we would have to click on every cavalry-type AI unit to see to find out whether it's light or regular, and you can't do that during the AI's turn. How much of an issue that might be would depend on how good the AI is about upgrading in a timely manner.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Originally posted by ducki
The only reason I supported the artwork was that someone said there is already artwork for the "extra" civ - Austrians, I think.

No custom art. No extra download. No quality issues. No confusion with existing units. No apparent drawbacks.

The issue is not custom art, it's different art. Most players have never even seen the art for the Austrian UU. So, if they were to open up the AU mod and see a weird-looking Cavalry, you can bet they would feel the AU mod was very mod-ish (like the GOTMs and CFC). This is independently of whether or not the art was done by Firaxis, and whether it's any good.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae

The issue is not custom art, it's different art. Most players have never even seen the art for the Austrian UU. So, if they were to open up the AU mod and see a weird-looking Cavalry, you can bet they would feel the AU mod was very mod-ish (like the GOTMs and CFC). This is independently of whether or not the art was done by Firaxis, and whether it's any good.

So you want to compromise playability just to make it feel less "mod-ish"?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
This change is one of the biggest in the history of the AU Mod in terms of its potential impact on strategy.

If so, it's only a reflection that the Military Tradition beeline is simply too powerful and game-ending. I'm confident that with the change, (Light) Cavalry rushes will still be quite useful, just not overpoweringly so. You seem to want to cling to the "overpoweringly so" part.

Dominae, regarding your "better banana" analogy, we aren't just talking about better nutritional value. We're dealing with clear and direct matters of life and death.

This is a game.

If you're so afraid that your Light Cavalry will die like flies, you might have to (gasp) bring more of them along to do the job, or (gasp) use ground bombardment to soften up your targets, or simply (gasp) accept that it's not feasible to conquer 5-10 cities per turn anymore. These are all big changes to strategy around the time of MT, and they're all good ones, IMO.

Personally, I think the "visual cue" is unecessary, but many of you think it is. Now, think of your actual game experience: would you ever forget what types of Cavalry you have in the field? I imagine that once you hit Nationalism you would do your best to upgrade as many Cavalry as possible, and that's that. Any ones forgotten would not turn the tide of battle, would they? And if you're worried that they might, a simple right-click on the stack should tell you what's what. Just look at the banana's label!

There is still, of course, ducki's argument that people not entirely familiar with the AU mod not realize that Light Cavalry upgrade to regular Cavalry. Again, I think the solution to this is to create a brief FAQ for the AU mod, outlining the main changes that new users need to know about.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae

Personally, I think the "visual cue" is unecessary, but many of you think it is. Now, think of your actual game experience: would you ever forget what types of Cavalry you have in the field? I imagine that once you hit Nationalism you would do your best to upgrade as many Cavalry as possible, and that's that. Any ones forgotten would not turn the tide of battle, would they? And if you're worried that they might, a simple right-click on the stack should tell you what's what. Just look at the banana's label!

It's easier if you can tell just by looking. I think it's ridiculous to make telling which kind of cavalry is which harder than it has to be just because it would involve visual evidence that (gasp!) we're playing with a mod.

With different graphics, it would be a simple matter to look at F3 sorted by unit type to see whether any units were missed by shift-U and to switch to showing by city to see where they are. Then if there are still light cavalry unaccounted for, look on the map for light cavalry that aren't in cities and for any other units that light cavalry might be hiding under.

With the same icons, though, a look at F3 by sorted by city won't make it clear which cities have light cavalry in them and which have regular cavalry, nor will it be possible to tell by looking at the map. Further, while cavalry outside cities at the time of hitting shift-U obviously would still be the light version, if such light cavalry aren't caught and upgraded before regular cavalry move out, things outside cities would get a bit muddled. Sorting F3 by unit type, moving the mouse over the units of the type that need upgraded, and checking where the units are on the minimap provides a last-ditch way of hunting down units that need upgraded, but I'd rather that not be the only way I can look short of checking every single stack in my empire.

Also, a visual difference would provide a last-ditch piece of insurance against accidentally attacking with a light cavalry that somehow missed being upgraded. Why do without that bit of insurance when we can have it so cheaply and easily?

[nbarclay]

I just thought of a possible snag to the upgrade process. Assuming cavalry continue to require access to horses and saltpeter, it will be impossible to upgrade light cavalry in cities that don't have access to those resources. That could be especially problematical in invasions where no harbor has been built or captured yet, or if the light cavalry were built with a resource from a trade that has since expired.

[alexman]

There is no question in my mind that a separate animation for Light Cavalry would make the mod more playable.

However, we have to carefully weigh the benefit of easily identifying Light Cavalry on the map, against the potential problems caused by incorrect installation of the mod.

Adding new unit animations involves the creation of an AU mod scenario folder containing some new text files. A simple save will no longer be sufficient to play an AU game using the AU mod rules. Anybody who has not installed the mod will have problems when he tries to open an AU mod save.

And as for the resource requirement, I don't think it's a problem at all. It's just how the game works. It's similar to the Med. Infantry upgrade from Swordsmen, where both units require iron.

[TheArsenal]

If it is a question of changing the basic mechanics of the game, not being able to readily and visually identify separate, distinct units which make appearances at different points in the tech tree, is a far more significant change than adding any additional graphic. If I see an ant trail of AI Cavalry breezing momentarily into view and disappearing again into the fog of war between turns, I would feel much more comfortable not having to guess which type of Cavalry it is.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
However, we have to carefully weigh the benefit of easily identifying Light Cavalry on the map, against the potential problems caused by incorrect installation of the mod.

I would rather have people actually get around to playing the mod and possibly complaining about it, than have some never touch it because of an annoying installation procedure. People are far more open to reading a FAQ about a mod's gameplay changes than a technical "how to get this mod working in the first place". Plug, play, and deal with everything else later.


Dominae

[lockstep]

Originally posted by alexman
Adding new unit animations involves the creation of an AU mod scenario folder containing some new text files. A simple save will no longer be sufficient to play an AU game using the AU mod rules. Anybody who has not installed the mod will have problems when he tries to open an AU mod save.

I don't see a problem here. The first time you want to play an AU mod save, you install the AU mod by simply unzipping some files (AU.biq plus a folder including text files) into your (Civ III)\Conquests\Scenarios\ folder. This also gives you the possibility to start new games using the AU mod rules. Is that really too much to ask?

Just as an example, I've created a 'Light Cavalry Test' mod. Unzip the attached zip-file into your (Civ III)\Conquests\Scenarios\ folder, and enjoy!

From the readme: This mod is for testing purposes only. It makes Cavalry available at the beginning (no tech and resource requirements, cost of 10 shields) and includes a new 'Light Cavalry' unit (also available at the beginning) that uses the graphics of the Hussar (the unique unit of the 'hidden' Austrian civ).

[Dominae]

That's great, but then a 4000BC savegame of the AU mod version of a scenario is unplayable unless you go through the installation procedure.

I agree that it's not a huge deal, if you know how to do it. Also, I'm sure this is one of those slippery slope -type things; in a couple of months we'll realize we've created something as completely annoying to install and intrusive as the GOTM scenarios.

The AU mod is supposed to be lightweight and simple, darn it!


Dominae

[ducki]

Originally posted by Dominae
That's great, but then a 4000BC savegame of the AU mod version of a scenario is unplayable unless you go through the installation procedure.
...Dominae

Just so I'm clear on this - if you do not go through the "normal" install of the AU mod, you can still play AU Mod games using a .sav?

And this is not true if we assign a different (but already existing in the standard install) graphic for any given unit?

[lockstep]

ducki: Yes and yes. It comes down to the question how many players of AU mod saves don't have the AU mod (currently only a biq-file) installed. If you ever want to install the biq-file, any additional folders could be automatically installed (unzipped) at the same time.

[ducki]

In that case, if a poll were to show a significant percentage(more than, say, 5%) of AU-modded AU class players did not, in fact, have the mod installed, I'd sing a different song.