AU mod: Cavalry

[alexman]

The problem:

A large proportion of Civ3 games effectively end when the human player gets Military Tradition. Cavalry not only has a movement of 3, but also an attack factor 50% better than the best defender of the time. Such a powerful unit makes it hard for the human to resist the temptation to beeline for Military Traditionand roll over his neighbors for an easy domination victory over AI, which often has been researching the upper branch of the tech tree and does not even have Gunpowder.

Proposed Solution:

Reduce Attack factor for Cavalry to 5. Create new "Improved Cavalry", available at Nationalism, with old Cavalry stats.

The way this modification works is that with the advent of Nationalism, you can "upgrade" your Cavalry to Improved Cavalry at no cost (say that nationalistic sentiment makes them more effective in battle). A nice side effect is that this change should give some incentive for the human player to research or trade for Nationalism.

Please discuss, or share your own ideas!

[Harovan]

It has been discussed and agreed. I think it is a good change. Just name the 5.3.3 unit "Light Cavalry" and leave the name "Cavalry" for the 6.3.3 unit coming with Nationalism.

[geniemalin]

I'm not sure that I see the attack rating as a problem so much as the supreme mobility. IMHO in the Cavalry era Speed 3 is too much, and I would prefer to see a 6.3.2 Cavalry (and arguably change Riders and Ansars to Speed 2 and compensate in some other way.)

Speed 3 units are much harder to counterattack, and given the 'weakness' of Cav is the low Defence rating, a slower Cav would be more 'killable' although still a powerful offensive unit.

[ZargonX]

Has it been tested how the AI handles a 0 cost upgrade?

[Dominae]

Yes, I also agree that this is a good change.

It's either nerf the Cavalry's mobility or its offensive power. IMO the definitive trait of Cavalry is its 3 movement. Therefore, in aims of keeping as close to stock as possible I think it's best to reduce its Attack to 5. The only thing we'll really notice is that it's harder to end the game at Military Tradition. And conveniently that's the goal of the change!

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Just name the 5.3.3 unit "Light Cavalry" and leave the name "Cavalry" for the 6.3.3 unit coming with Nationalism.

No! The 5/3/3 version must be 'Cavalry', and 6/3/3 one 'Improved Cavalry'.

Just kidding, I actually prefer your names.


Dominae

[MrWhereItsAt]

Either of these sounds excellent, although keeping in mind Dom's point about the 3 moves being Cav's defining attribute the reduced attack would seem the better option. However, would this mean we see ANY significant advantage to having Cav instead of Knights? Every unit I can think of has an upgrade worth doing. When you are on 3 defence, 4 is worth the upgrade. But when you are on 10 defence, the next worth it is 18 and this jump is justified IMO. Does Cav come at a time that an increase of 1 attack point conveys effectively no noticeable benefit? Admittedly, benefit from an aextra attack factor relates strongly to the defnese you come up against, but 5 attack may just not be enough to be worth it, even with 3 moves.

And what about Dom's statement about the AI not being able to put much of an effort up against 3 move units?

[Thoth]

MrWIA: I'd upgrade Knights to Light Cav even if they only had a 4 attack. The extra movement is well worth the cost to upgrade.

ZargonX: The AI would upgrade it's Gallic Swordsmen to Med Inf in PTW (IIRC this was a zero cost upgrade)

[Mountain Sage]

I was thinking about the zero-cost of the (Improved) Cavalry. Since all upgrades cost something, why not make it cheap (10 gold) but still put a cost to it. It would not break the logic behind upgrading (nothing comes for free, you get better units but you have to pay something in exchange).

[Stuie]

MS - I would keep the free upgrade so as not to hobble the AI.

I've been using this mod since we discussed it in the old AU Mod thread, and I definitely like it. My Middle Era tech tree strategy has undergone a complete revision; there are times when the beeline is still in order, but it's not a given any more.

However, I would also like to see the Military Academy modded so that it does not require a victorious army. That way, even if the weaker cavalry is not absolutely necessary to a player's strategy, there is still great incentive for researching Military Tradition... especially given the new power of armies. Thus there are decisions that have to be made regarding research strategy, instead of a set formula.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Stuie
MS - I would keep the free upgrade so as not to hobble the AI.

But will the AI then upgrade all units automatically, to the latest standard?
In one of my latest PtW game a German battleship escorted a galley and Germany declared war by landing 2 MI...

If it's possible, I would mod the game in a way that the AI MUST update all obsolete units. Then, if so, why not for free?

[alexman]

Just to clarify the AI unit upgrade situation:

The AI upgrades its units as long as they are in a city with barracks (or harbor) and there is cash available. The AI often has a lack of cash, and that's why you often see obsolete AI units. The zero-cost upgrade removes one of the obstacles for the AI to upgrade its light cavalry.

By the way, another reason to have a zero-cost cavalry upgrade is to change as little as possible. You still have your old cavalry unit, but it just doesn't get its full attack strength until Nationalism. I at least get the feeling of one unit instead of two separate ones, if that makes any sense...

[Harovan]

What will be done with Cossacks and Sipahi?

[ZargonX]

What will be done with Cossacks and Sipahi?

I would think in the case of the Sipahai, it would have to be moved back to Nationalism, and have an upgrade cost assigned to it. What that cost would be would have to be determined...

[Stuie]

In the mod I'm currently using, I changed the Sipahi and Cossack to mirror the changes to Cavalry. So I have:

Military Tradition
Cavalry 5.3.3
Cossack 5.3.3 blitz
Sipahi 7.3.3

Nationalism (free upgrades for all)
Cavalry II 6.3.3
Cossack II 6.3.3 blitz
Sipahi II 8.3.3

Both versions of the Cossack and Sipahi are flagged to started a Golden Age.

[alexman]

That's what I was thinking too.