Early Landing Comparison Game #2

[Bloody Monk]

SCG,

WooHoo!! Shaved off 137 yrs on, in my opinion, a much harder start. Congratulations. I will resist reading your log in the interest of getting more done in my game. Postmortems after we have finished.

Yes, these have been challenging, no tech starts. But it is about playing the given map as opposed to getting the earliest date for a super record. We all start with the same hand, so to speak...except for those anomolous differences caused by the OS in use.

Monk

[rjmatsleepers]

Governments
Monarchy
Republic 1250 BC
Democracy AD 1660
Communism/Fundamentalism

Wonders
HG
MPE
ST AD 140
Colossus
Copernicus AD 860
Isaac's AD 1550
Leo's
Michaelangelo's
Darwin's AD 1760
SETI AD 1850
Apollo AD 1865

SSC stats
size 8 AD 400
size 12 AD 560
size 21 AD 1360
max. size 23 (AD 1776)

Techs
Trade 625 BC
Invention AD 1060
Railroad AD 1690
Automobile AD 1778
Nuclear Power AD 1812
Computers AD 1848
Flight AD 1851
Space Flight AD 1863

AC arrival AD 1900

I managed to improve my landing time by 50 years - not as much as SCG, but at least an improvement. I lost quite a few turns when my SSC site was threatened by a barb trireme with archers in 525 BC. Th bigest drama was in the 1850s when I got into a small war with the Chinese who walked into my undefended capital

My real failure was that I didn't establish a good trading partner or pattern. Most of my deliveries from my SSC were undemanded.

Oh well, there's always game #3

RJM at Sleepers

[rjmatsleepers]

I've looked at SCG's save and realised I didn't use the 4 special site as my SSC. I was emotionaly committed to my choosen site before I found the (8,64) site and I didn't realise it was a 4 special until later when I uncovered the whale. Since I don't use "hut finder" I don't know about 4 special sites until I reach them. (I've only just noticed the 4 special site at (11,51)).

RJM at Sleepers

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by solo
Continent #1 a second time was just by chance, as I was not even considering this, but for game #3 I will also look for a continent # other than #1 for a change of pace.

The summary is just that, the minimum requirement, and if the majority of players concur, we can make changes to it to make it a better synopsis of the game.

Since we can't ban black clicking, I think starting on continent 1 is a neat work around so I vote for continuing with it if we can.

Also, I've been thinking about the game save. In my games the period after discovering fusion power and especially between launch and landing are very different from the rest of the game - selling white goods during SS construction phase and rush building all sorts of things after launch. Would it be more instructive to post a game save on the turn you discover fusion power rather than the turn before landing?

RJM at Sleepers

[solo]

RJM,

I think using continent #1 for every game may not be to the liking of some, so I will just stick to the first start I find with a decent SSC site, and not even take into consideration the continent #. Different continent #'s affect trade in different ways, and I think some variety here is a good thing.

Your other idea for posting on the launch turn sounds good to me for the reasons you state. For now I'll accept a save from the launch turn or from the turn before landing, since either can be used to verify the landing date.

[solo]

I just finished my own game, and was able to arrive in 1141 AD. After being smoked by a number of other players during the first half of the last game, I made some changes to my early strategy, putting a little more focus on science and early trade match ups.

Due to a minor blunder mentioned in an earlier post, I ended up having to learn Warrior Code and also had to trade for the dreaded Pottery in time to learn Seafaring for the harbor I needed. Not meeting all the AI early hurt me there, but since I did have contact with the key civ, I was happy enough and concentrated on science, which worked well.

Without road or rail bonuses, I was held to only two turns later on with two advances, and the second half pace was behind that of game #1, but the early tech lead in game #2 held up. I had a lot more trouble this game getting enough gold to keep up with my plans.

For now I will post a summary and a save at the time of launch.

ELG #2, deity, raging, standard map & options, Zulus, 2.42

Republic 1850 b
Democracy 460 a

Shakespeare’s 325 b
Colossus 280 a
Copernicus 125 b
Isaac Newton’s 180 a
Darwin’s 560 a
Apollo 1060 a

Size 8 – 250 b
Size 12 – 150 b
Size 21 – 260 a
Max. size – 27

Trade 1000 b
Invention 260 a
Railroad 540 a
Automobile 740 a
Nuclear Power 840 a
Computers 980 a
Flight 900 a
Space Flight 1040 a

AC Arrival 1141 a

[Scouse Gits]

Lord - you are soooooo lucky - I got the Colossus in 500BC by dint of sacrificing the entire Cavalry of the Empire, just before the bloody Chinese

SG[1] - envious.....

[SCG]

looking at just the scaled version of the log, it confirms the lack of meeting the Celts or Carts early killed me - I beat Solo to Trade, Colossus and Shakespeare's Theater, same turn to size 8, and was effectively 1 turn behind on republic (i would have discovered in 1800 bc but delayed for oedo year). However, I was unable to obtain astronomy and lost out on it, thereby blowing my chance as i wallowed in dead time between discoveries immediately after. Gives me hope for in ELC#3

[rjmatsleepers]

Great game Solo - I look forward to the game save.

(Although I'm not sure someone who is still buying paint by numbers kits can learn a great deal by looking at the Mona Lisa.)

SCG

I presume from your comments that you control early unrest with warriors since you talk about disbanding them. I usually go for CB as my 4th tech (building barracks that I convert to temples). My reasoning is (was?) that way there are no wasted shields. It clearly doesn't work so I'll try a different route But why Horseback riding rather than (say) bronze working?

RJM at Sleepers

[SCG]

i don't go for CB first because it delays republic by 1 tech. As for horseback riding vs bronzeworking, i guess it depends on who the close AI are. My orginal thinking was to get a 2-movement explorer, but i don't seem to be building them, and bronzeworking would allow me to get to Trade several turns earlier in games i can't trade for it (this game i was able to trade for it)- will look into that next game

[solo]

SG(1),

Yes, I was lucky to have Colossus available so late in the game. AI wonder choices seem to be at random, and this can hurt or help us in a big way, depending on how they “choose”. I built Colossus earlier (and just before an AI civ!) in our first game.

It looks to me that if an AI does not start a wonder permitted by the tech just acquired, that they “forget” it exists and do not reconsider building it while newer wonders are still available.

RJM,

I’ve looked over your save and summary. A nice improvement over your first game, in spite of some bad luck, such as the early barb attack, losing your capital to the Chinese and the delaying war. Missing a better SSC site hurt your progress, too, but you are right that (11,51) was a good alternative site. Did you notice (27,51), too, which had 2 whales and 2 fish? This would have been my choice, if I had not already committed to the 2 silk, wheat and whale near the starting position.

I agree with you that Ceremonial Burial is a good choice for the 4th tech, since Literacy can not be researched right after Writing. With CB you get an earlier start on temples and not as many warriors are needed. So my advice is to stick with this plan. Horseback Riding can be skipped, since diplomats can explore as fast as horsies and because you should never learn a tech yourself that you can be sure will be available from the AI through trade. This is one tech most of them always have, and I delay the trade hoping they will learn The Wheel before I need it.

You might try a replay of this game for some more practice while waiting for game #3 to start.

Oops, I meant SCG,

Your log is most interesting and well written! You’ve also zeroed in pretty well on what went wrong and what could have been done for a better landing date, but hey, this was an excellent result considering you lacked Copernicus. It’s hard to compete with only half of the science others are using, but you still managed a big improvement over the first game. You get off to terrific starts, and then it happens, some unlucky event ruining your chances for a great game! I’m just wondering what it will be in the next game!

I agree you missed the boat a bit by not finding the Certs earlier, but with a little black clicking in the beginning of the game, it is usually easy to locate the closest continent, even if you are on continent #1. After all, you know where you are, when you are on #1, and the coastline becomes obvious as you start to explore. I don’t consider being on #1 as much as a problem as when the nearest overseas AI are on #1, since that makes it harder to know where to look for those important early trading partners. However, once found, you made out well by trading hides. I also hit pay dirt with early trades to Carthaginian cities, which grew quickly, were easy to reach, and had excellent amounts of base trade.

With no chances for roaded or railed routes to AI cities, I knew that the SSC would have to be larger, so I did convert my SSC silk to wheat just before celebrating from size 21 to 27. This is something you considered that probably would have paid off, since each extra scientist or tax collector adds a lot. I wish I had had time to add farmland, but all those other forests had to be chopped followed by roads and irrigation, and this took too much time.

I also had some fits when trying to find the best place for colonies. Almost a Colony was very well named! Island #5 had good possibilities, but I did not notice this until much later, after Apollo revealed most of it. The Certs took away some good potential sites, too, and I never had enough gold to bribe away one or two of their cities.

I think a strategy of trying to time the discovery of Democracy with Oedo years is a bit overrated, too. It’s much more important to be a Democracy early than to fiddle with this so long!

In 720 AD you wonder why you can not research Steam Engine. The answer to this question is that at that time you had acquired 31 techs, and Steam Engine would have been 32nd. However, this tech is in Oedo group #2, which is omitted from tech lists when the remainder of total techs/3 = 2, which it is in this case (32/3=10 with a remainder of 2). Are you aware you can predict any list of tech choices by using Oedo’s discoveries detailed in the “Techs – Next Available” entry of SG’s Great Library?

You ought to replay this one if you have time just to see what you could have done with Copernicus. Twice as well, I would expect!

I omitted my save at the time of launch in my summary post, so here it is:

[SCG]

Originally posted by solo
SG(2)

Your log is most interesting and well written! You’ve ...

*wonders if he should move to England and take up wine tasting as a hobby *

In 720 AD you wonder why you can not research Steam Engine. The answer to this question is that at that time you had acquired 31 techs, and Steam Engine would have been 32nd. However, this tech is in Oedo group #2, which is omitted from tech lists when the remainder of total techs/3 = 2, which it is in this case (32/3=10 with a remainder of 2). Are you aware you can predict any list of tech choices by using Oedo’s discoveries detailed in the “Techs – Next Available” entry of SG’s Great Library?

I'll have to look that one up, i've been periodically scrolling through the strategy forum periodically for threads I missed while on my last hiatus from Civ, must have missed that one

You ought to replay this one if you have time just to see what you could have done with Copernicus. Twice as well, I would expect!

I'm pretty sure i could do a sub-1600 landing and maybe a sub-1500 landing, may see if i have the time later

not now though, the Space Luddites are getting rather ansy over in the General forum

[Scouse Gits]

solo ... your reference above to SG(2) should read SCG

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SG(2)

[Scouse Gits]

ETA - AC 1176

I'm still plodding through 36 post launch years! It seems I was on solo's tail for most of the way but he raced away at the end.

I was broke and it took ages to build the ship

Governments
Monarchy 2050BC
Republic 225BC
Democracy 460AD
(Am presently at 1147 and still in Demo)

Wonders
Hanging Gardens 850BC
Colossus 700BC
Shakespeare's Theatre 200BC
Copernicus' Observatory 40AD
Isaac Newton's College 280AD
Michelangelo's Chapel 320AD
Darwin's Voyage 640AD
Apollo Program 1060AD

SSC Size
Size 8 - 150BC
Size 12 - 25BC
Size 21 - 520AD
Size 25 - 700AD

Events
Trade 900BC
Invention 320AD
Railroad 620AD
Automobile 760AD
Nuclear Power 840AD
Computers 920AD
Flight 940AD
Space Flight 1000AD
Launch 1140AD

I tried a few different things this time. I will post my thoughts when I actually reach AC in 1176!

-------------------------

SG(2)

[solo]

Maybe I should try SCG(2)

SG(2),

Super game! In fact, you got to Space Flight two turns earlier than I did, and completed two more wonders than me beforehand. This could be why you ran low on gold near the end. I look forward to the post mortem when we can compare our games in more detail.