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  • 16ad

    Settings: Deity, 7 civs, raging hoards, random map (small).

    4000BC Americans, near-polar start, hut in view
    Alphabet, Code of Laws, Ceremonial Burial, Mysticism

    There are reasons for choosing the Americans. First, I want a color that is placed on the map late in the sequence, because these civs are more likely to receive what Civ2 considers a "bad" starting location and therefore one that is compensated for with multiple starting techs. In a non-OCC game, the human player is likely to become Supreme quickly and maintain that position. Therefore I don't want to be Purple (the key civ for Supreme) as this will not allow me to reduce research costs via tech-gifting. I also don't want to be Orange (the key civ for Mighty) since giving all techs to the Purples usually makes them Mighty. Because the AI's research cost is also based on the key-civ concept, choosing Orange would make me the key-civ of my own key-civ which is a waste. However, Light Blue is the key-civ of the third power (Strong) in the game, who will therefore benefit from my tech lead by paying minimal research costs. This relationship can be exploited further by judicious tech-gifting and trade. Among the Light Blue civs, the Americans and Chinese receive better starting techs (for early-landing purposes) than the Persians.

    3950BC hut-horseman
    3900BC hut-chariot
    3800BC hut-archer
    3700BC hut-50g
    3650BC French- Ceremonial Burial for Writing (also have Masonry), peace.
    [Paris is excellent site for AI, river&2whales]
    Washington founded- 2gold/spice/wine. river and ocean.
    [great trade specials, only four wasted squares.]
    New York founded - whale/coal/ gold (shared with W). hut-nomads.
    3550BC hut-horseman
    3500BC Literacy
    3450BC Boston founded from nomads, iron/wheat
    3400BC hut-50g
    3350BC French-trade COL for Masonry.[To delay Republic one turn]
    3300BC hut-50g
    3250BC Washington-library.Republic switch to Republic hut-nomads
    3200BC English-Republic for Currency. peace.
    French-Republic for Mapmaking

    One advantage of an early Republic strategy is that you can give Republic to the AI and they will switch to it from despotism immediately. This effectively doubles their trade arrows, making their cities better trading partners and speeding up their research, resulting in more techs available for trading.

    3150BC Washington-S2 hut-Construction
    3100BC NewYork-S2
    3050BC Trade hut-50G hut-100g
    3000BC NY-temple, Wash-temple. Japanese, give Republic, Mapmaking
    peace, share maps.
    2950BC hut-horseman
    2850BC Mathematics hut-barbarian horse, killed by chariot. hut-50g
    2800BC Boston-settlers hut-Astronomy
    2650BC NY-trireme
    2600BC Philosophy University NY-S3, Welove! Wash-S3, WeLove!-Dye
    Philadelphia founded from Boston-settlers.
    2550BC Wash-S4, NY-S4. barb leader captured-150g
    2500BC Wash-S5, NY-S5. Mongols-give all techs ex Astronomy, peace, maps.
    French-give Trade, University, Philosophy, Currency, share maps.
    2450BC NY-Welove! ends. Wash-S6.
    2400BC Medicine Wash-WeLove! ends. Romans-give 6 techs, ally, maps. hut-50g
    2350BC Wash-HIdes, NY-Hides. Dye to Karakorum (d), 205g.
    Mongols-Medicine for Wheel English-Mapmaking for Iron Working
    Give Construction Writing Trade to English, share maps.
    2300BC Philadelphia-S2. Engineering
    Egyptians-give 5 techs, peace, maps.
    2250BC Boston-Hides
    2200BC Philadelphia-HIdes, Boston-S2 Mongols-give all techs.
    2150BC Invention Wash-Gold, WeLove! French announce Seafaring.
    2100BC Wash-S7 NY-Hides Hides(W) to Karakorum (d), 168g
    2050BC Gunpowder Gunpowder and Invention to Mongols, share maps.
    Now researching 20th tech (Explosives).
    2000BC NY-food Atlanta founded Iron Working to Romans, gift 25g hut-nomads
    1950BC Atlanta-food. Phil-temple. Boston-temple
    1900BC Wash-silver Gold to Karakorum, 253g Advanced tribe-Chicago.
    1850BC Explosives Wash-University.
    1800BC Wash-COPERNICUS' OBSERVATORY French-Invention for Seafaring

    Cope's is usually my first Wonder in a research race. Much better than Colossus, IMO. In fact, in this game, I never built Colossus at all, not acquiring Bronze Working until very late.

    1750BC BridgeBuilding Phil-S3, Boston-S3
    1700BC NY-engineers French-Astronomy for Banking
    1650BC Boston-engineers Silver(W) to Karakorum(d) 230g
    1600BC Navigation Wash-Colosseum, WeLove!
    1550BC W-S8
    1500BC W-S9
    1450BC Democracy W-S10, change govt. to Democracy. Seafaring and Invention to Romans, gift 50g. all techs to M. Navigation to English and Japanese.
    1350BC Physics Wash-WeLove! ends

    With Washington at size 10, having Cope's and University, and the 90% science rate allowed by Demo, research is now running at a tech/2 turns.

    1300BC Wash-Dye barb leader 150g
    1250BC Theory of Gravity
    1200BC hut-50g, NY-food
    1150BC Steam Engine Wash-Copper Boston-food. French announce Economics, give 5 techs, share maps.
    1100BC Atlanta-food
    1050BC Railroad
    1000BC Atlanta-temple Phil-food,
    975BC Industrialization Copper(W) to Paris, 38g Dye(w) to Paris, 38g

    Early game trading strategy Is based on overseas caravan deliveries to Mongol cities, using the beaker bonuses to accelerate research. Mid game, the focus shifts to maximizing trade routes with the delivery of low-bonus caravans to Paris. Three engineers are working to lay down a Road/Railroad to that city, which will result in ongoing trade routes more than double those from Mongol cities. This increase will allow Washington to sustain a tech/2 turn research rate until NEWTON's can be built.

    950BC barb leader-150g
    925BC Magnetism Boston-food. Wash-Paris road done. (W-P trade routes 12arrows) French-Industrialization for Economics
    875BC Corporation
    850BC Wash-food
    825BC Refining Wash-ISAAC NEWTON COLLEGE
    775BC Metallurgy Wash-coal, Atl-transport.
    All techs to Mongols.3 techs to French, 3 techs to Romans.
    750BC Wash-Paris Railroad completed. (W-P trade routes: 18arrows)
    Boston-coal. Coal(W) to Karakorum (d), 320g.
    725BC Electricity Wash-silver, Phila-coal. Chicago-transport
    700BC Combustion Wash-gold, NY-coal. SanFrancisco founded (island)
    Silver(w) to Karakorum(d), 320g
    675BC Steel Wash-coal. Buffalo founded (from nomads).
    barbs near Boston, vet horse kills legion.
    650BC Coal(w) to Karakorum(d), 320g Wash-wine.
    625BC Automobile Chicago-temple. Atlanta-food (zoom to Washington)
    Wash-Superhighways. Flight.
    Wine(w) to Samarkand(d) 415g Gold(w) to Samarkand(d) 498g St.Louis founded from Phil-eng. English-Industrialization for Warrior Code All techs to Mongols. (W-P trade routes: 27 arrows)

    600BC Radio Mass Production Wash-silver. SanFrancisco-silk
    Boston-food. Silver(w) to Karakorum(d) 425g.
    575BC Electronics Wash-airport, WeLove! SanFrancisco-airport.
    Airlift Silk(SF) to Washington.
    550BC Wash-wine, S11 .SF-silver. Phil-oil Wine airlift to SF.
    Chicago builds engineers. French- Warrior Code for Conscription
    All techs to Mongols. Silk(SF) to Wash(d) 613g
    Detroit founded from NY engineers.

    Late game trade strategy focuses on airfreight deliveries from small (size1) island outposts at great distance from the SSC (the two continent trading strategy). This turned out to be a benefit of a near-polar start -- the opportunity to maximize trading distance and delivery bonuses. High bonuses are obtained from freights originating in either the outpost or the SSC. These help achieve 2 techs/turn several times. In addition, the founding of a port city (Detroit) on the Mongol continent, allows 1 turn deliveries to Mongol cities.

    525BC Monarchy Wash-gold, S12. NY-food, Buffalo-food Atl-food
    StL-food Wine(W) to SF(d) 595g Airlift silver to Wash.
    Mongols- Monarchy for HorsebackRiding. All techs to Mongols.
    500BC Feudalism Chivalry Wash-SHAKESPEARE'S THEATRE
    WeLove! ends. Detroit-silk. Phil-food. Boston-food.
    SF-salt airlift to Wash Gold(w) to Samarkand, 534g.
    Silver(SF) to Wash, 317g Silk(D) to Wash, 206g
    475BC Leadership Atomic Theory Wash-coal. SF-food
    New Orleans founded on big island (Chicago engineer)
    Airlift food to Wash.
    450BC Tactics Wash-silver Det-coal NewOrleans-airport.
    Silver(W) to Karakorum. 672g. Coal(D) to Wash, 176g
    Salt(Sf) to Wash, 230g All techs to Mongols.
    425BC Nuclear Fission Machine Tools NewOrleans-coal.
    St.L-food Buf-food.SF-silk Chicago-oil Atlanta-airport
    Phil-food Bost-food NY-food. Wash-gold
    Gold(W) to Samarkand, 534g Coal(W) to Karakorum 540g
    Silk(SF) airfreight to Atlanta. Coal(NO) airfreight to Wash
    All techs to Mongols
    400BC Advanced Flight Miniaturization Det-food Wash-wine.
    Wine(W) airlift to NewOr. Oil(C) airlift to Wash
    Coal(NO) to Wash, 675g. Silk(SF) to Wash 772g
    375BC Computers NewOr-beads StL-coal Buf-oil SF-food
    Chicago-silk Atlanta-wine Phil-oil Bos-oil NY-coal
    (Zoom to Washington) Wash-research lab.
    Nuclear Power Bead(NO) airlift to Wash.
    Wine(w) to NewOr 675g Oil(C) to Wash 310g
    Oil(Buf) to Wash 136g, Oil((phil) 119g
    350BC Rocketry Space Flight Wash-gold
    Silk(C) airlift to Wash. Beads(NO) to Wash. 270g
    Gold(W) to Samarkand, 574g all techs (exSF) to Mongols.
    Egyptians- Railroad for Pottery
    325BC Plastics Buf-silk SF-beads Chi-copper Atl-wine Bos-coal
    NY-oil Wash-gold Gold(W) to Samarkand, 534g
    300BC Laser Det-food, StL-eng. Philadelphia-APOLLO PROGRAM
    NY-coal Wash-wine airlift to NewOR. Beads(SF) to Wash, 319g
    275BC NO-eng. Buf-silk SF-silk Chi-silk Atl-wine Bos-coal Wash-gold Baltimore founded. Wine(W) to NewOr (d) 675g Gold(W) to Samarkand 534g English-Computers for Bronze Working

    At this point science rate is cut to 10%, taxes set to 90% for maximum cash. Research is achieved by beakers contributed from freight deliveries.

    250BC Superconductor Det-eng. StL-coal. Phil-eng.NY-eng Wash-wine
    Denver founded. Cincinnati founded. Dallas founded
    Silk(SF) to Wash, 317g. Wine airlift to NewOr.
    225BC Denver-copper. Balt-gold Buf-eng. SF-beads, Chi-food.
    Atl-eng Bos-eng. Wash-gold Wine(W) to NO, 642g
    LosAngeles founded.Kansas City founded Gold(W) to S, 564g
    SanDiego founded
    200BC Fusion Power Dallas-silver. Cinn-coal Den-beads NO-food
    Det-hides. StL-gems Phil-eng NY-eng Wash-silver
    Beads(SF) to Wash, 317g Richmond founded. LasVegas founded.
    175BC Sanitation SanDiego-food, KC-food. LA-oil Den-silver
    Balt-food SF-silk Chi-food Atl-food. Wash-wine Phoenix founded.
    Silver(W) to Orleans 232g, Wash-WeLove!
    150BC LasVegas-food, Richmond-food, Dallas-food Cinn-food NewOr-food
    Det-food StL-food Buf-food. Phil-eng. Bos-eng. NY-eng.
    Wash-sewer system S13 Silk(SF) to Wash, 330g

    Washington finally grows past 12, in attempt to increase freight payments.
    Boston, Philly and NY are cranking out engineers to found cities.

    125BC Phoenix-food, SanDiego-food, KC-food LA-food Denver-food
    Balt-food SF-beads Chi-food Atlanta-food Wash-harbor, S14
    Seattle founded. Albuquerque founded. Portland founded.
    Wine(w) to NO, 692g University sold 160g
    100BC Diplos in LV, Richmond, Dallas, Cinn, NewOr, Detroit, StL, Buffalo
    Phil-food, Boston-food, NY-food, Wash-gold, S15
    Beads(SF) to Wash, 338g Sell ResearchLab, 160g

    Start building diplos in all cities to setup "zoom-to" links.

    75BC Diplos in Wash (S16), Boston, Atlanta, Chicago, SF, Baltimore,
    Denver, LA, KC, SanDiego, Phoenix, Seattle, Albuquerque, Portland.
    Minneapolis founded. Sell Library 80g Pollution near Washington
    50BC Diplos in NY, Philly. Food Freights in Buff, StL, Detroit, NewOrleans,
    Cincinnati, Dallas. Airport(SF) sold 160g. Airport(A) sold 160g Gold(w) to Samarkand, 564g Wash-silver, WeLove! ends.

    25BC Food freights in Boston, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Seattle, Portand. Last diplo airfreights into place in NewOrleans. Silver to K, 535g
    Airport sold(W) 160g, airport(NO) sold. Temples sold in NY, Phil, Bost, Atlanta, Chicago.

    All cities switch to building Wonders:
    15 Hanging Gardens (structurals - 1 freight in),
    6 Great Libraries (components - 3 freights in),
    3 Leonardo's Workshop (modules - 6 freights in)

    15 x 120(30 shields short) = 1800
    6 x 40 (10 shields short) = 240
    3 x 80 (20 shields short) 240
    plus 2 freights short = 400

    Cash needed: 2680 gold
    Cash in treasury: 2047 gold.

    Shortfall: 633 gold.

    1AD Minneapolis builds diplo. Zoom to city, follow chain of diplos and change all wonders to SS parts. Since cash is short, buy the part in every other city, then the first city builds its part, zooms to the next, disbands its diplo and buys the part. Repeat. Last part is build with 52 gold remaining.

    Spaceship Launched 15-3-3-1-1-1 (arrival 16 AD)

    Sewer system sold 120g. Rush buy freight in Wash and transport in Atlanta (disband 3 diplos). Frontier cities start buidling alpine troops, interiors build freights.
    Negotiate with all civs, meeting demands for techs, cash.
    Treasury at end of turn: 6 gold.

    2AD Mongols steal Fusion Power. Mobile Warfare.
    Wash-silver, Atlanta-transport. Silver(W) to Karakorum, 535g
    3AD NewOrleans-airport, NY-airport. Wash-wine, airlift to NO.
    4AD Wash-gold. Wine(W) to NO, 445g Appease all civs with techs.
    5AD Food-freights in LA, Cinn, Balt, StL, Buff, Bost, NY.
    Gold to NO, 175g Appease all civs.
    6AD LasVegas-coal, Boston-oil, NY-EIFFEL TOWER W-marketplace
    appease all civs.
    7AD Espionage Wash-wine. Buff-dye. Appease all civs.
    8AD Wash-airport, wine(w) to NO, 742g
    9AD Food freights- Portland, LV, SD, LA, Phil, Bost. SF-silk, Wash-silver
    10AD Wash-gold, Buf-food. Silver to NO, 287g
    12AD Wash-wine, airlift to NO. Silk(SF) to wash, 217g
    13AD Robotics Wash-gold Wine(W) to NO, 767g
    14AD Wash-wine, airlift to NO.
    15AD Wine(W) to NewOrleans, 767g Albuquerque-food.

    Save of 4000BC (after turn) position is attached.
    Attached Files

  • #2

    A super game and thanks for the detailed log. A precise and I'm sure, enjoyable, trip through the tech tree, with some more nifty ideas like using airports to get the most out of those trade bonuses and "chaining" your way to a 1 AD launch.

    It must have warmed your heart to get Astronomy from a hut right after learning Math, and to have an opportunity to trade the ancient Warrior Code to La Fayette for modern day Conscription!

    The only omission in the log I noticed was when and how Chemistry was acquired.

    Without parts available in BC years, I suppose the only thing left here to do now is 16 AD with a standard map. Knowing you, that will probably take a few more days!

    Very nice job!



    • #3
      LOL..this is just ridiculous.Fantastic stuff.

      Don't let anyone that may be working on a Civ4 see this!
      The only thing that matters to me in a MP game is getting a good ally.Nothing else is as important.......Xin Yu


      • #4
        Solo, good catch on Chemistry, it was 2300BC, researched after Medicine. The Dye caravan in 2350BC pushed it through.

        And yes, the French were helpful throughout. They where the STRONG civ in this game and thus benefitted from paying low tech costs since the Americans were their key-civ. Also, the railroad-bonused trade routes from Washington to Paris boosted their science as well as mine.

        Yeah, the standard map is a lot tougher for early landing games. 500AD would be a real challenge there. As you know, the research costs are significantly higher on standard maps. And here's a little known fact: the caravan and freight delivery payments (distance and other factors being equal) are 20% higher on a small map than on a medium map and 50% higher than on a large map.

        The biggest factor in this game was having supply commodities available in the SSC throughout the game. Had they dried up at a crucial point, the research and cash flow would have suffer a lot. In the early game I got a good bounce between Gold and Silver with the Mongol capitol. Each one taking its turn in the trade route and then being freed up when the other one was delivered. This is also the game in which I noticed the 10/20/30 techs affect on commodities.

        The biggest thrill in this was when the diplo chaining to build the SS parts in 1 AD actually worked. I couldn't believe it!
        Attached Files


        • #5
          Great stuff. I only wish that you had found this back in the days when speed records were more popular. Once they hit the theoretical limit, a lot of interest died. THis would have been quite a splash then. I'm sure they would have named the strat after you. Good job.

          So I assume from you other post that you didn't do any caravan rehoming.

          It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
          RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O


          • #6
            Samson's City-Cycle System for building on the same turn when you learn the tech.

            There. It's named after Samson now.


            • #7
              How do you know that the French power was STRONG? I know you can find out your own powerrating by pressing F3, but how do you know how the AI's are rated?


              • #8
                Some super insights revealed in that log - thanks again

                "Our words are backed by empty wine bottles! - SG(2)
                "One of our Scouse Gits is missing." - -Jrabbit


                • #9
                  Lars- After F3, send an emissary to a civ. In the alcove to the left of the leader's picture are a number of weapon icons, from 0 to six. This is that civ's current power rating. 0 = pathetic, 1 = weak, 2 = inadequate, 3 = moderate, 4 = strong, 5 = mighty, 6 = supreme.

                  Rah- Correct, no caravan rehoming. And yes, I know it's rather late in the day for new Civ2 records. Ah well.

                  SG - thanks.


                  • #10
                    I haven't read the log yet, but I must say at once that I am ready to trade almost anything with samson in order to help him achieve such results.

                    (La Fayette, happy owner of Conscription)
                    Aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental


                    • #11
                      Samson, you chose not to play an orange civ, so as not to become the key civ of your key civ. It seems to me that it would be useful to be the key civ of your key civ. Your ability to reduce your research cost is enhanced by your key civ's rapid acquisition of techs, and their rapid acquisition is enhanced by having you (certainly one of the tech leaders) as key civ, thus reducing their own cost. What am I missing?


                      • #12

                        I believe I can answer your question. If your key civ is also using you as their key civ, you will be making sure that your key civ is given every tech you acquire, to keep your own research costs at a minimum. Since your key civ will always have at least as many techs as you do, they will not benefit from your vast tech lead over the remaining AI by gaining lower research costs.

                        In fact, all the your tech gifts to your own key civ will only serve to slow down their own research speed, since each tech they acquire only adds more beakers to the cost of the next be researched by them.

                        You want the civ that uses yourself at its own key civ to be quicker at learning techs through its own research, in the hope that they will learn something you do not have, allowing you to trade for it later on. The fewer techs they have of their own, the quicker they will be able to learn. By putting a civ OTHER than your key civ, in the position to have you as their key civ, you can exploit your huge tech lead over them.

                        In samson's game, he arranged for the French to use him as their key civ, and samson benefited from this by trading for a number of techs that they were able to learn by themselves. The beaker costs for the French were low, because samson had such a large tech lead over them. In addition, he was able to augment their research ability even more by the ongoing trade bonus obtained by both with the connecting railroad to his SSC.
                        Last edited by solo; October 16, 2002, 10:33.


                        • #13
                          I see. It's not important to facilitate your key civ's progress, because you'll be funneling stuff to them so fast that their own research won't really matter, and you'll always stay "behind" them and gain the cost reduction. So, let your tech lead benefit someone who can do cheap research and then trade with you. (And I note that the weakest civs are likely to do the cheapest research, but also to do it slowly and to produce techs you already have, so it makes sense to find the Strong civ.)

                          Thanks, Solo, and thanks, Samson.


                          • #14
                            I read your log: my god!!!!
                            ...and you even build the Eiffel Tower
                            Aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental


                            • #15
                              Exactly, Solo. The human player's key civ is flooded with so many techs, the cost of research vastly outstrips their own researching capacity. They are useless as a research assisant. Which is why choosing Light Blue is best for an early landing game. While you won't know which civ will become STRONG, you know that whoever it is will benefit from your tech lead and pay minumum research costs. This, coupled with the fact that they are the third most powerful civ, makes them a valuable 'research assistant'. Gifting them with science-enhancing techs like Republic, Writing, University, etc. can increase their value in this role.

                              In theory it would be possible to have more than one 'research assistant'.
                              Assume the powerratings stabilize midgame as follows:

                              Supreme - Light Blue (human) - tech leader.
                              Mightly - Purple (human's key civ) - stagnant researcher.
                              Strong - White (key civ is human) - robust researcher.
                              Moderate - Green (key civ is Dark Blue) - robust researcher.
                              Inadequate - Dark Blue (***) - stagnant researcher.
                              Weak - Yellow.
                              Pathetic - Orange.

                              In this example, you want to do heavy tech-gifting to the Dark Blue as well as to the Purple. By doing this, the civ with the Moderate powerrating (Green) also benefits from minimum research costs, and could become a decent 'research assistant'. In my 16AD game this wasn't possible because the Dark Blue civ (French) was the Strong civ and I didn't want to weaken their research capacity with heavy tech-gifting.

                              Something to keep in mind when choosing your civ's color is the type of game you intend to play. If you are playing OCC, purple is not a bad choice at all. OCCers often jump to an early Supreme powerrating and will benefit from the fact that being your own key-civ prevents you from paying high research costs (even before contacting other civs). Later your powerrating will likely fall to Strong, Moderate, or lower as other civs expand with multiple cities. At that point, the new Supreme civ will benefit from your tech lead (if you are Purple) and become a robust researcher and a source of new techs you can trade for.
                              Last edited by samson; October 16, 2002, 12:08.