Positioning to conquer a city

[Campo]

Edward makes some excellent points, and he has me thinking that we should know a little more about Jrabbit's previous experience.

Jrabbit - have you been in democracy at diety? If not, then at emperor? You said above that you've come close to winning at diety but haven't yet. Was it by AC or conquest? Have you won at both at emperor?

Could you give us a summary of your general approach and experience?

[-Jrabbit]

Wow. OK, if you really wanna go there...

I've been playing for a little over 2 months. Have played several complete games but as a family man have limited time. Won my way up the levels on first try, except deity, which has kicked my butt all (3 or 4) times I've tried. Closest I came was last game, which was my first attempt at having an SSC. Had my border cities holding off the bad guys while my core cities built the SS. Launched and thought I just had to hold on until it was over, but the AI managed to build a faster ship and beat me by a year. I was so PO'd, I almost broke my iMac. (I knew the AI cheated, but this was ridiculous.) So I found the info on SS configurations and travel time and now I'm back at it.

Most of my lower level victories were military conquest. (My tutorial game, I tried to get to AC, but in the end, eveyone wanted to fight and my superior air and sea power made it easy.) Have always won in the 20th century, at all those levels. Earliest win was 1934, I think. My emperor win was military, via Communism.

I usually play in Communist since I don't have to hassle with city riots and get the full 80 percent science rate. And can make war when I have to/want to. What's not to like?

I tried early Republic twice. Very frustrating trying to keep control of all the cities (especially since I haven't memorized all the breaking points -- you know, like "build one more city and everyone becomes unhappy"). Never did fugure out how to sustain the WLTxD thing.

Have not managed a Democracy before. So this will be a bit scary. But I'll never learn if I don't try.

Have won at sub-deity with the Fundamentalist switch (military).

Oh, and per my handle, I'm an old friend of Ming and RAH from college days, so I've seen them play quite a bit. (Of course, you can only learn so much from watching someone quick-clicking through all the game functions. But it gave me some idea.) So much for my so-called background.

More? OK... Let's talk about the Democracy approach.

1. JS Bach still available. Need to get to tech path that permits it. Will do.
2. I have 3 militia per city (some have 4 with diplo). Is that too many?
3. Have very few Marketplaces. Should I speed that process with sale of musketeers? (I have Adam Smith now!)
4. Re "fortress on your borders" -- I'm about to own the wole continenet, so it seems that theremaining civs can land wherever they want, making fortresses prblematic. Or should I build them every 2nd square all along the shoreline?? (Sounds like I have lots of settlers to build.)
5. I did in fact decide to go for AC early in the game. But weaker opponents on "my" continent kept attacking. I swear, they were practically begging me to wipe them out! By the time I did so (and yes, I did break one cease-fire in the process, but trust me, it was necessary), everyone was declaring peace with each other and signing Secret Treaties (Blue Oyster Cult, 1972).

I missed HG, but got Colossus, Mike's chapel, Copernicus, Newton, Leonardo's, Adam Smith, and a couple other WOWs. (I'm at work, game's at home, sorry.) I know I'm doing well, cuz we're in the 3rd age and I'm the only one with any of those Wonders. Will have Darwin very soon, which is what will allow me to make the distinct break in the tech path required to try this 2 different ways.

Hey, I really appreciate the input. I would have joined Apolyton much sooner if I knew how cool the people are.

Will make notes on the full situation tonight so I can answer more accurately. Keep the suggestions coming!

[Campo]

Okay, good info. First let me congratulate you on the progress you've made -- only playing two months and competitive on diety is really good, especially for someone with a life. I know what that's like -- I've had Civ2 for 3 years but only get to play maybe one game a month due to family and work obligations.

Don't be discouraged by this, but I have to start by saying you'll be hard-pressed to win a democracy AC game your first try. The pesky happiness and anti-war issues can be daunting at first. But you're right that you'll learn from it, and if this one doesn't succeed then the next one probably will.

On to a few specifics:

1. JS Bach still available. Need to get to tech path that permits it. Will do.

Right, that's the first order of business. I'd stay in communism until you have JSB.

2. I have 3 militia per city (some have 4 with diplo). Is that too many?

You'll get different opinions about this, but I think three units is fine while you're in Communism. However I wouldn't leave them in the cities. I'd send a few two-move units, diplos and mounted, out exploring. And you might want to disband a couple of older units to build a couple explorers, and send them out. (I'm assuming there is uncharted territory on other continents.) Use your dipos to bribe other-continent barbarians and enemy units -- they won't require support or cause unhappiness when you move to democracy. They are very valuable; having NON units and Leo's in democracy is a good combination, as they stay current (until the automobile era, at least).

3. Have very few Marketplaces. Should I speed that process with sale of musketeers? (I have Adam Smith now!)

Adam Smith's is very good! You should indeed have marketplaces in most cities, in fact I'd say all cities since you have Adam's. I wouldn't disband more than one unit per city towards them though. Are musketeers your weakest units?

4. Re "fortress on your borders" -- I'm about to own the whole continenet, so it seems that the remaining civs can land wherever they want, making fortresses problematic. Or should I build them every 2nd square all along the shoreline?? (Sounds like I have lots of settlers to build.)

This does pose a problem. On the one hand it's good having the continent to yourself, on the other it does make for a big border.
Without seeing the map (this isn't a world map, is it?), here's what I'd say: there's probably too much territory to cover your border(s) with fortresses. And even if you did, I assume you have coastal cities, which would be susceptible to an AI diplo landing-and-stealing-in-one-turn. However you should move at least some diplos into key positions. I would try to determine likely AI landing points -- have any reached your continent yet? You can also station some ships off your coast along likely AI travel paths, though that will be costlier once you're in democracy. (Unless you're lucky enough to get NON ships through bribery.) Maybe someone else will have better suggestions for this point.

I missed HG

No problem -- you're past the point at which it's most important. Once you get JSB you should be fine.

So I found the info on SS configurations and travel time

Good. For this game (and probably for a while) plan on building the fastest spaceship.

BTW:

I'm an old friend of Ming and RAH from college days, so I've seen them play quite a bit.

I'm really jealous. I would love to have the chance to watch one of the real experts play. The more you play, the more you'll learn from watching them.

Hey, I really appreciate the input. I would have joined Apolyton much sooner if I knew how cool the people are

I've learned most of what I know here. I had mastered King on my own but was getting beaten at emperor and clobbered at diety until I discovered this group. It was a lot more active before Civ3 came out though.

[-Jrabbit]

Campo --

It the exploration thing really so big? For my SS/Democracy game, I thought I'd just play isolationist and trade internally. Everyone's at war with me anyway (except the Celts, in cease-fire). and I must admit, I've probably only built 3 or 4 Explorers ever. Seems like they just go out and die...

I have ID'd a couple enemy landing points (convenient to nearby continents). They seem to come back to the same general area repeatedly. These spots, I can fortify. In the fortresses I build, do I just park a diplo, or keep diplo plus a musketeer so bribery not a problem?

Yes, musketeers are my wimp units. My 2x units are crusaders. And I just got cannons.

YOU CAN BRIBE A SHIP??? Do you get the contents?? does it have to be ship-to-ship diplo, or can you do it from shore? (I never tried this, since you can't fire a f***ing cannon at a ship from the shore, only vice versa.)

Jealous that I know Ming and rah?

Must be a matter of perspective.

[Campo]

You're right that explorers have a tendency to get killed. I use them sparingly, just a couple per game, for covering difficult terrain such as around the poles. There are huts there, one of them often with a NON settler. However at the stage of the game you're in the poles may have been covered by another civ.

You're probably also right that it's not necessary to explore the "dark" area for your isolationist game. I always like to see what's there, so I usually explore AI territory even when I'm going for AC. Just my preference. However I still think it's a good idea to put a diplo and defender on a ship and go off looking for barbs or cheap AI units to bribe, to get some NON units you can take back to your territory.

In your sentry forts, I suggest keeping a diplo and defender together. The diplo prevents the defender from being bribed, and the defender keeps the diplo from being killed. This is a good use for those bribed NON units I mentioned above, especially when you get in democracy.

Yes, you can bribe a ship, but only if it's empty. As on land, you can't bribe stacked units, which is what a loaded ship is. Like ground units, if you bribe a ship when it's close to an AI city then it will be a NON. These are great in democracy, when ships at sea cause unhappiness.

Hey, I didn't say I'm jealous that you know Ming and rah -- for all I know they are evil axe murderes. I'm jealous that you've gotten to watch them play.

[Campo]

I just realized that I didn't answer all your ship bribery question: you can do it either from a ship or from the shore. It takes some luck from land, especially with Barb ships -- you have to get it when it's empty but still adjacent to the land.

I dont' think you ever replied about the odeo years -- have you heard about that concept for changing governments?

[-Jrabbit]

Yes, I've got the Oedo years concept, even have a cheat sheet on it.

Ming and RAH are not axe murderers. (If they were, I'm certain they'd have offed me years ago for some perceived slight on the gaming fields.) They're good guys, and I've known them for over 25 years. Hang at Ming's almost every Friday night to blow off steam and do a little gaming after the work week.

Played just a couple turns last night. Converted most cities to produce either a marketplace or a settler for their next build. Looking forward to many Leonardo'd engineers in another turn or so once I get RR.

Germans are down to one city -- spent money rushing settlers so couldn't bribe both. Looks like I'll need to tear the walls down and do it by force.

All for now. Gotta get to work.

[-Jrabbit]

Situation Update

OK, so it's now 1836. I bribed the last German city in the 20s, built a lot of marketplaces and settlers, and went to Democracy effective this (oedo) year. Set luxuries/science at 50%. (Just a guess based on a some of my reading here.) Even with 0% taxes, I break even on cash (cost/income both 20 GP).

Of my 44 cities, only a handful required an Elvis, and another handful started celebrating WLTPD. ("So I must be doing something right!" he exults.)

I now have Darwins, but blew it on my free techs (forgot to grab Medicine on path to Engineers). So that will be next. (Although I suspect Murphy's Law will withhold Medicine from the list next time.)

Started to build the UN in my capitalbut that's basically an investment waiting for switch to Bach.. (Suffrage also available. Is that a better choice?) Still no offer of Theology for JS Bach... very discouraging. Why does this not appear? I've had Mono for centuries...

Leonardo's just created tons of Riflemen for me, so the defense is looking better. Have also started on the RR network though work will be slow settlers handling the task. Found a few spots for more cities and will be founding them shortly.

I'm seeing regular invasions by boat from all 3 remaining civs. So far, so good on defense. The Persians are in Demo, so no bribes available. Celts and Zulus less of a threat (though they attack more often.)

So, the proposed tech path is -- Theology and Medicine as soon as they're available. If not available, I guess I go on paths leading to SS parts (still waiting for Refining to appear). If none of these is available, maybe the Corporation (for Freight) or Electricity.

I assume that, next turn, my cities will be stabilized and I'll start the re-deploy of troops to fortresses. since I have several (frigates? galleons? = upgraded caravels), maybe I'll experiment with the ship-chain thing once I can get it organized, but I'm looking at that as secondary.

I assume my next goal is to get as many cities celebrating as possible. Am I correct that a 50% luxury rate should be sufficient, and that I then use Elvises to grow the recalcitrant cities? (Yes, I understand that aqueducts will be needed.)

So that's the situation for now. Expert commentary welcome...

[Campo]

You'll want more than a handful of cities celebrating. People have different guidelines, but I won't "waste" the high luxury rate for long if I don't get at least 3/4 of my cities celebrating. I'd say half would be the minimum. If you don't reach half by next turn, I'd either increase luxuries to 70% (but not for too long) or put luxuries down to 20-30% until you get JSB. I'm interested in other people's view on this; I think it's pretty subjective and I might be misguided. (You're aware that a city has to celebrate for two turns before it grows? And besides aqueducts you also need a food surplus -- and that is required for continued growth, so check every turn and move workers around or irrigate as needed.)

Are you sure you have all the prereqs for theology? Maybe it's not being offered because you need something else first.

Wonder choice -- here's where it gets tough. I consider JSB almost essential for Democracy happiness control. However your other choices are also valuable. Women's sufferage will reduce unhappiness of "away" military units, and that comes in pretty handy. You can accomplish the same thing with a police station in every city but it's nice getting it all in one shot. The U.N. is really handy for keeping tabs on the AI and forcing them to make peace with you -- even though they usually break it pretty quickly, buying a few turns of peace can help regroup. My personal priorities would be: JSB, UN, Women's. However I'd build caravans in at least half my cities to see if I could get all three. (You're going to want caravans for trade as well -- three routes in every signficant city.) Again I'm interested in other people's approach.

Be aware that when you put units in forts in Democracy they will not generate unhappiness only if the fort is within 3 spaces of a city. (I'm pretty sure it's three; can someone confirm?) It doesn't have to be their home city, but you do need a city nearby.

Ship chaining -- some people swear by it, but I rarely use it. It commits a lot of resources, engenders unhappiness in Democracy, is time-consuming to use, and keeps ships at risk of attack. It's great when it works, but it's also a pain. Maybe someone who uses it can speak in favor of it. (BTW, your upgraded caravels would be galleons. They don't have any attack value, unlike frigates.)

[-Jrabbit]

Thanks for the excellent input, Campo.

I just realized that I blew off Feudalism and that's why no Theology yet. It's so late in the game, I'll need to check and make sure no AI already grabbed it. Blast it, I played the idiot card again. (So much to learn...)

Yes, I've made sure that all my forts are within 2 or 3 squares of a city, and will make sure the troops inside are homed to the nearby city.

Building lots of caravans, and have a bunch on the road already.

Again, I want to confirm that it's correct to use Elvises to achieve enough happiness to celebrate.

Good tiip on the need for food surplus to celebrate. Another missing piece of the puzzle...

Finished in a hurry last night, so I'll take a closer look at things tonght. The hardest part for me is turn-to-turn management. I have a strong tendency to just play continuously. Checking through 40+ cities every turn sounds like work, and I do this for play. Hoping this activity will develop its own fatal fascination for me.

Another bit of management difficulty is tracking caravans -- which cities demand what, which caravans are going where, etc. When you get a lot of them going at once, it's just plain confusing. I find myself constantly clicking Advisors >> Trade >> Supply/Demand >> (Commodity), then >> OK >> Cancel to get back to the board. Lots of clicks for basic information. Is there a trick to this that I don't know about?


I continue to lead in techs (per the "retire from game" chart). Must remember to study the Persians (closest pursuers) to see where they're going. I assume I'll be making some of my tech and city improvement choices based on their coming attack improvements...

Now, back to work...

[geofelt]

A few thoughts for you:
1) Hanging gardens is more important than you think. Build it in your capitol as your first wonder. This lets your capitol grow, and increases early science because you have WLTx conditions giving you republic trade.(equal or more happy faces vs content, and no unhappy). It lets you found more cities early because the first citizen is always happy. When trying to grow with WLTx under democracy, it is critical to get that extra happy face. without it, you need a courthouse. Deity is MUCH easier with HG. Do all your growing before it expires with railroad.
2) As soon as you can, connect all your cities with railroad. Defense becomes much easier when you can rush many defenders to counter an attack.
3) Get explosives early and let leonardo's upgrade settlers to engineers. Engineers are more than twice as effective. They can move and build a road in one turn, where a settler takes three.
4) For a space conquest, build up your science city to the max, and concentrate on building shield production capacity in the others. The ai will steal space techs at the end, so you need to build and launch quickly.
5) Stockpile food caravans to help build ss parts quickly. It might be a cheat, but ss parts are in the class of wonders. If you start a wonder(like manhattan project), deliver some caravans, then switch to the SS part, you will get the full 50 shields of value from the caravan. Even if you simply disband, you get 25.
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If you go the conquest route, build up your economic power, then go commie and have every city build vet spies until you have enough(50+?). Then go fundamentalism which will generate much gold to bribe your way to victory. If the UN is available, build it because you can't stay at war with it's owner.

[-Jrabbit]

Update March 08...
Well, I got to play a little last night. Still playing with luxury percentage to keep WLT days going, but I have managed to grow several cities to size 8, and a few beyond. tricky stuff to keep it all balanced.

Bribed an incursive Zulu city, got Medicine

Studying Feudalism -- JSB is still there!

Trying to marshall my caravans so I can get both JSB and UN in short order.

semi-continuous attacks on coastal cities, but have weathered every storm so far. Having some problems keeping my fortresses staffed with militia/dips so they don't become attack strongholds for the bad guys. But managing to hang on still at this point.

Actually found/popped 3 new huts -- all for cash on a south pole exploration run.

All for now. ISO 9000 audit in 10 minutes here in the real world...

[Campo]

Checking through 40+ cities every turn sounds like work

Yes, it's a pain in the butt when you get more than a dozen cities. Are you aware that you can specify a list of improvements to be built? Unfortunately it can't be individualized by city but you can specify which cities should use it. It's useful if you have a group of cities that are at about the same stage, and in which you want to build the same sequence of improvements. You create a file called "citypref.txt" in your Civ2 folder, and list the improvements in the order you want. Then in the city screen specify auto build and choose domestic advisor. You have to be careful about using it or you'll end up with improvements you don't want, but it can reduce your micro-management some. The file syntax is important. IIRC, the first line has to be @build. I'm not completely sure though; maybe someone else can confirm.

BTW, I agree with geofelt about the importance of Hanging Gardens in the early stages at Diety. It's often my first wonder. But since it was already gone and you had Mike's, I don't think it's a game-killer.

Studying Feudalism -- JSB is still there!

Great. Aim hard for it -- get some caravans ready so you can build it quickly when you get the tech. Do you have Marco or embassies with the AI? If so, check their techs and trade for Feudalism and/or theology if you can get a reasonable deal.

semi-continuous attacks on coastal cities

Don't forget about Coastal Fortresses -- they double defense bonuses.

From a previous post:

I want to confirm that it's correct to use Elvises to achieve enough happiness to celebrate

Good question. I know you can't celebrate when you have any unhappies. I think you can use Elvises to correct that but I'm not positive -- I don't usually do that. Can anyone confirm?

[-Jrabbit]

Marco Polo expired and don't have UN yet so not certain of enemy positions relative to JSB. Just gonna stockpile camels so I can insta-build it when I get there. Considering dropping out of WLTxD mode to get the techs faster.

If I don't attain JSB, what's a mother to do? Just UN, women'sSuffrage and pray?

Thanx for the added good input. I'll check in after the weekend.

[Scouse Gits]

Jrabbit - can you post a save of your game?

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SG(2)