City improvement build order?

[Dry]

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 02-22-2001 08:21 AM Hence your investment of 160 gold provides a net benefit of 1 gold/turn: this is a very low return (that is exactly why I advise to avoid building a library so early).

I think I need to improve my English .
What I wanted to say was not that I *do* build a library with 7 arrows, but it is the very starting point at which it is interesting to ask the question.
Of course, all the fun with this games is the question of ROI.
At 7, it is not worth it, nor at 8 or even 9.
I had the feeling that 12 was a little but too much, so I made a small calculation. Today, my feeling is that 10 seems a good number.
And the 4-6-0 strategy is also not the best with only 2 or 3 such cities. I usually play 3-7-0, but I keep asking me the question...

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 02-22-2001 08:21 AM 2) You can get 12 arrows in a very tiny city: for example with 3 trade routes providing 4 arrows each. Try it once: refrain from building any early library, build a few caravans instead (preferably high priced commodities, column #2, demanded by a fat foreign city), then have a look at your treasury when you deliver them (don't forget that if you get 100 gold instant bonus on delivery, you also get 100 beakers in the research box at the same time, + the continued trade route afterwards).

Ah, here I honestly have a real question.
I tried to send caravans as soon as possible.
In my last game, the 1st caravan (dye? hides? I don't remember) was sent BC in direction of the west, where the carthaginians came from. It took ages before it found a city demanding dye. There was one, but they changed their needs before I arrived. When I found one, I received something like 36 gold and 1 arrow/round .
And this was the best result until 900AD, when one reached the 'fat' Aztec capital. I received 139 gold and 3 arrows/turn. At that time, my city was 8 in size with MP, Lib, Temple, celabrating WLTKD.
Yes, I have noticed that overseas caravans pays (alot) more than land caravans, but the problem is to get there in reasonable time.

How do you do to get to those fat cities demanding column 2 commodities?!?!

Usually my early cities produces things that nobody, sometimes not even myself, needs. This is why my early caravans usually are used for WoW building.

[DaveV]

I'll interject myself into this argument (deflector shields at maximum, Mr. Scott!).

I agree with Dry that early caravans should be used to build wonders - specifically, Hanging Gardens and Colossus in the capital. Then, I use settlers to build that city up to size 8 (with the 'b' command). The city can be kept celebrating for 10-20% luxuries, and will be generating a minimum of 27 arrows (lots more if you have some decent trade specials). This city can then be a target for my other cities' trade caravans, while I rush for construction (12 more trade arrows) and sanitation (24 more arrows). Even with the loss of overseas and foreign bonus, this works pretty well. The trade routes are established right away, I get all the benefits, and my city will have far more arrows than any AI ever dreamed of having.

[Edward]

DaveV,

Very interesting strategy. I usually avoid trading with my own cities, preferring to get that foreign bonus. However a SSC is certainly a prime target for caravans and is almost guaranteed to have more trade arrows than any foreign city. If it has twice as many arrows then it's superior to sending caravans to foreign cities! You also have the added bonus of probably having a road to your destination, probably having a shorter traveling distance, and having little chance of your caravan being killed en route. I'll have to try this.

As for libraries, they become a more interesting buy when a city already has 3 trade routes. At this point the new trade route probably won't change the city's permanent trade/turn much and many potential caravan destinations already have their demands met. Also, when you build Adam Smith's Trading Company the libraries won't require any coin/turn support. I still generally delay building libraries (and most city improvements) for a long time.

[La Fayette]

[quote]Originally posted by Dry on 02-22-2001 09:40 AM


How do you do to get to those fat cities demanding column 2 commodities?!?!


I go scouting early (with several horses and/or dips and/or explorers, and triremes most of the time). Scouting with a caravan (as you say you tried to) is risky and very often not quite rewarding (as you experienced).

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by DaveV on 02-22-2001 10:24 AM I'll interject myself into this argument (deflector shields at maximum, Mr. Scott!). I agree with Dry that early caravans should be used to build wonders - specifically, Hanging Gardens and Colossus in the capital. Then, I use settlers to build that city up to size 8 (with the 'b' command). The city can be kept celebrating for 10-20% luxuries, and will be generating a minimum of 27 arrows (lots more if you have some decent trade specials). This city can then be a target for my other cities' trade caravans, while I rush for construction (12 more trade arrows) and sanitation (24 more arrows). Even with the loss of overseas and foreign bonus, this works pretty well. The trade routes are established right away, I get all the benefits, and my city will have far more arrows than any AI ever dreamed of having.

Happy landing, Dave!
This is performing.
Have you tried it without HG or without Col? (reading you, I suppose we must consider them prerequisites).
The fun with it is that I was about to start a new thread about a "Starving Science City", which is some kind of equivalent in Monarchy.
(is Mr SCOTT your regular co-pilot?)

[DaveV]

La Fayette - yes, I'm trying something similar in the headstart succession game (wonders disabled). That city is on a river network, with spice, whales, and wine, so it is still a trade powerhouse. I'll let you know how it turns out . With my preference for shields, I'm thinking monarchy ICS combined with a super trade city could be a very strong strategy. This strategy still exploits the black-to-light blue bug, of course.

[Marko_Polo]

quote: Originally posted by DaveV on 02-23-2001 10:08 AM This strategy still exploits the black-to-light blue bug, of course.

What is this 'blac-to-light blue bug'? Never heard of it!

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Marko_Polo on 02-26-2001 05:37 AM What is this 'blac-to-light blue bug'? Never heard of it!

I call it the "double black faces" bug.
Some strong players have taken advantage of that bug and developed a powerful strategy named ICS.
Dave is the one who wrote a very impressive and well-written summary of that strategy (that you will find in the GL). He is much more qualified than I am to explain shortly what "black to light blue" means.
(still I never said I never play ICS, ... ... in 2002 perhaps?)

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[sulla]

My build order:
A good defensive unit to hold the city
Granary
Harbor (if seacoast city)
Marketplace
It varies from there

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Sulla-The last dictator of Rome before Caesar. He changed Rome and Rome sure as hell changed him.

[EdwardTKing]

In single player at deity difficulty; I almost invariably build a TEMPLE first to avoid disorder. In multi-player, typically at king difficulty; I usually build a BARRACKS first. I occasionally may build a COURTHOUSE in multiplayer games where "city bribing" is permitted first; or CITY WALLSs at an ithmus to protect against a hostile force. After building the Colossus; typically because Pyramids (single production) or Hanging Gardens (deity) already built; my first improvement may be a LIBRARY.

[debeest]

What geofelt said. Exactly. Warriors for martial law and defense by intimidation; settlers for explosive expansion; diplomats, horses and triremes for exploration; caravans for Wonder building. With enough tiny little cities and HG, you don't even need temples; they just interfere with the effect of HG (see next paragraph). Eventually, when you're ready for a representative government, build the infrastructure for explosive city growth under WLT_D: temples, markets, harbors, aqueducts....

The blackface bug refers to this fact: although it normally takes two luxuries to move a citizen a step toward happiness, when your citizens become enraged, it inexplicably takes only two luxuries to move a citizen from enraged through angry through content all the way to happy. Absolutely critical to ICS strategy.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Wow. Go away for a few weeks and a whole thread springs up!

I think I've gradually been moving away from a 'build order' when I play, and most of what I read in this thread reinforces that tendency. Marketplaces and libraries always seemed like natural choices to build early, as they fed the basic need for money and beakers. And bear in mind, I grew up with CivI, which _forced_ you to always build something... no capitalization, no caravans (IIRC).

Having read everyone's comments, I think I'm going to be more careful with what I choose to build. Early on in the game, I don't think there's any question I'll stay away from improvements except in the SSC, and where happiness issues require temples. The drive to get favorite wonders means that caravans and wonder building, to say nothing of settlers for rapid expansion, will always be my first priorities.

For the latter part of the game, though, time seems to be the issue. I used to pander to my inner perfectionist and try to turn every city into a thriving metropolis. Bank, aqueduct, factory, university, etc. Whenever I saw a city producing, say, 4 shields per turn after maintenance, I would start a factory just so that it would be producing 8 or more when built. Trouble is, that factory will take 50 turns, or about 10% of the game to complete, without rush building. Would I be better off with a caravan in 1/4 of the time? Probably, so I've started to pay more attention to building factories (and other shield-costly improvements) in cities where I'll get the most bang (and soonest bang) for the buck. Most of you probably figured this out long ago, but it's a minor epiphany for me. Now my rule of thumb is to only build where I get a return/turn of 5-10% of the build cost. (i.e. to build a marketplace I want at least an increased return of 4-8 coins/turn, since the marketplace costs 80 shields.)

Guess my next step is to throttle my inner perfectionist and try ICS soon... Who needs improvements, anyway?

Thanks for the advice,

STYOM

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 02-28-2001 11:10 PM Wow. Go away for a few weeks and a whole thread springs up! Most of you probably figured this out long ago, but it's a minor epiphany for me. Now my rule of thumb is to only build where I get a return/turn of 5-10% of the build cost. (i.e. to build a marketplace I want at least an increased return of 4-8 coins/turn, since the marketplace costs 80 shields.) Guess my next step is to throttle my inner perfectionist and try ICS soon... Who needs improvements, anyway? Thanks for the advice, STYOM

IMHO you are driving on the left lane of the motorway to success (10% ROI/turn is a nice target to start with ).
I won't follow you to ICS though (seems to me it's already rather crowded over there).

[Edward]

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 03-02-2001 09:27 AM IMHO you are driving on the left lane of the motorway to success (10% ROI/turn is a nice target to start with ).

Being an ignorant U.S. citizen knowledgeable only of my own country I have to ask: does driving on the left lane mean driving quickly or slowly?

[La Fayette]

Quickly in France and the rest of continental Europe (maxed at 130 km/h in France, no max in Germany). Slowly in the UK (and the british policy for safety on the roads is almost as efficient as the swedish one: less than 4000 dead/year against almost 8000 in France).
Unfortunately for the British, this doesn't apply on rails (the french TGV (Train à Grande Vitesse) travel at more than 300 km/h with no accident recorded in more than 20 years of use, whilst british trains, though travelling about half that speed, tend to derail and crash much too often).
Nevertheless, the super super TGV is to be found in civ2: instant transportation, no crash (except perhaps against crowded fortresses ).

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