A is for Alphabet

[oedo]

oops, forget what I said, I was misreading it....

[Legman]

It's alright oedo. Just thought I'd share it, not that's it sensational or anything, but still very unusual for me anyway. And it seems to highlight somewhat the theory that techs from huts usually follow certain laid out lines. This struck me as a rare exception to the rule.

[Deity Dude]

this may be way off but it seems to me that what you get out of a hut is at least partially determined by your standing in the game. i say this from experience and not testing but i seem to have noticed that if i am behind in techs i am more likely to get a tech, if i am expanding quickly i am more likely to get barbarians, if i am expanding slowly i am more likely to get a settler, if the treasury is bad i get money and if i'm low on the military units i get mercenaries. i'm not saying that this is absolute it just seems to be weighted in that direction. if anyone has any comments i'd be interested.

[Laertes]

I agree somewhat with Deity Dude. I think that the worse my starting position, the better my first few huts (money and advanced tribes).

[East Street Trader]

I went through a patch some time back where I explored for ever before founding on large maps. Turns out to be too powerful a tactic and the resulting games are a bore so I stopped. But while I did it I tipped lots of huts. A point assuredly comes (before founding anyway) where you get a long succession of units (that's what makes it too powerful a tactic).

During that period I also had a strong feeling that there is a set sequence for what comes out (before the succession of units). Thus if one hut gave money, so would the next. Then it would be advances turn (again two at a time) then units etc. Not having founded I only got an advanced tribe once that I can recall (the city did not have a palace and when I then founded I didn't get one in that city either AND I couldn't build one. (Irksome - think I lost). And still having both settlers I didn't get any wandering tribes. (BTW, I'm sold on the "one wandering tribes per land mass" idea with a "non" settler counting as a wandering tribe.) Barbs seemed part of the sequence but an exception to the twice in a row aspect.

The reason this (if true) might not be apparent playing normally is that the AI is then tipping its fair share of huts; also, playing normally, tipping half a dozen or more huts in a single turn is not commonplace.

But, if I'm right, I rather hope we never work out the sequence. It would be rather horrid to have an Oedo cycle chart for the outcome of hut tipping. (For the same reason I have, as yet, resisted the temptation to work out the hut pattern.)

If there is a fixed sequence, the notion that the outcome is affected by standing would be wrong.

Says nothing about the type of advance generated though. For what little it is worth, when I sit with fingers crossed hoping I'm not just about to get Warrior Code I seem to be disappointed just as often whichever tribe I am (and just about every bloody time that's been, just lately ).


Fascinated to read your dream path, Oedo. I, too, give exploring a very high priority (I assume that's what motivates the dream). Hasn't occurred to me that it is worth delaying Monarchy for though. Might just give that a whirl, SP, single production and on a big map.

Won't be for a couple of days tho'. Bought Might and Magic VI from a bargain bin (while unsuccessfully looking for Civ2 MP) and am in the midst of a hack and slash fest just at the minute. -- Yes, yes I know little things please little minds.


[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited November 30, 2000).]

[Daddy-O]

wow and thank you.

[Dino the Dinosore]

What East Street Trader said - my most recent game I did the goody hut thing and got a run of units, then 2 barbs in a row. I think there's growing evidence that they do run in cycles.

[poppawoppa]

A is for Alphabet. I had the misfortune of getting one of my newest of 35 cities in Deity taken by the Barbarians before I built the temple so I could put the first citizen to work. As they wanted 1200 gold of my 1209 total, I let them walk into the city. It was to be several turns later before I could get a diplomat over there to bribe the city back (I was in WAR with the Americans and Aztecs and needed them to destroy city walls). In the time before I got my city back, there was this message window that said:

Barbarians discover Alphabet

First time I had seen them doing any scientific research, but I'm sure the "Players" among you have seen many such instances.

Just thought I'd bring it up.

Keep on Civin'

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[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by poppawoppa on 12-01-2000 04:12 AMIn the time before I got my city back, there was this message window that said: Barbarians discover Alphabet First time I had seen them doing any scientific research, but I'm sure the "Players" among you have seen many such instances. Just thought I'd bring it up. Keep on Civin'

Yikes! I don't think I've ever seen this! Learned Barbarians!

And, BTW, EST, love your term "an Oedo cycle chart".


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Frodo lives!

[Blaupanzer]

Barbaric research, smells like an oxymoron to me.

On huts, if you reload to see what other results you can get (a definite cheat), the choices do cycle on a single hut. However, the hut-to-hut choices do seem to repeat instead of cycle.

[Sequoya]

Scouse Gits,

After review of your data, I think there is a strong correlation between the total AI Value of the Tech and the frequency it is awarded.

The following table demonstrates this with the first seven techs.

_____SGs' Occurance________Frequency__________AI Value plus Civ Mod
_____Civ__Neu__Mil____Civ_____Neu_____Mil______Civ __Neu__Mil

Hor ____2__132__169___0.30%__22.45%__33.53%___3___4___ 5
War____4___23__120___0.60%___3.91%__23.81%___3___4 ___5
Pot __135___27____0__20.09%___4.59%___0.00%___5___4___ 3
Cer __171__244__160__25.45%__41.50%__31.75%___5___5___ 5
Alp __393__237___76__58.48%__40.31%__15.08%___6___5___ 4
Bro __223__331__342__33.18%__56.29%__67.86%___5___6___ 7
Mas__171___21____3__25.45%___3.57%___0.60%___5___4 ___3

Please note that the freqency percentage is calculated against the total number of awarded techs.

For civilized AIs, the most frequently awarded tech is Alp, followed by Bro, Cer, Mas, Pot, War and Hor. This is also the rank order of the Civ modified AI value.
The neutral and militaristic AIs also follow this rule. This also tends to work for the more advanced techs.

Allowing for some kind of historical preference, like Egyptian masonry or Sioux horseback riding, I think it is possible that the modified AI value affects the order in which beginning techs are assigned.

I propose that the initial starting tech is randomly assigned with a preference for techs with a higher modified AI value and that subsequent starting techs are also assigned using the AI values. The menu of subsequent techs is probably limited to what could be normally be researched less the "killer" techs like writing or math.

I would like to look at your complete data set. I think it might show a few more historical preferences as well as show additional distribution patterns.

Congrats on a fine job,

Sequoya

[This message has been edited by Sequoya (edited December 01, 2000).]

[Richard Bruns]

Barbs can research well into the tech tree, but they can never use the knowledge to do anything. While testing barb city growth for my OCC 21 scenario, I saw them get about half a dozen techs. The research awarded has nothing to do with trade arrows; the city had so much corruption that there was never more than 1 arrow, and it was allocated to tax. It seems to be random, or possibly based on population. There were huge stretches where they got nothing, then they got something like 3 techs in 10 turns. But the tech had no affect on their ability to build things. They could only make settlers, warriors, and barracks.

It is just an odd bug with absolutely no effect on the game.

[La Fayette]

Hello, Scouse Gits!
This is my first post (sorry I discovered Apolyton only a few weeks ago and have been busy reading since then). Glad to tell you:'WoW'.
I'm currently doing research on a path close to yours: first results next week. Happy to say 'congratulations' meanwhile.

[La Fayette]

Here are the results I got, testing for my "3 arrows" strategy (have a look at it ! ).
The test included 100 game starts on a small random map with the Aztecs. It gave me 153 free techs (1.53 per start compared to your 1.33 for yellow civs, table 5):

Alphabet: 56
Cer Bur : 27
Bronze : 19
Code o L: 17
Masonry : 17
Pottery : 13
Currency: 3
Mysticis: 1

Those results are quite close to those you give table 2 (though the size of the map and the size of the test both are much smaller ).
The test I ran also included the results of entering one hut after start:
Warrior Code: 6
Horseback : 4
Bronze Work : 3
Pottery : 2
Masonry : 1
Writing : 1
Alphabet : 1
Cerem Burial: 1
Code of Laws: 1
(plus 58 units and 20 "Gold").
I found no link between game start and first goodie hut, but that must be studied more thoroughly

[SlowThinker]

It looks there are still Civ2 mechanics that are not deciphered. Probably too hard for samson and solo. Hopefully it is irrelevant for the gameplay.

(I thought starting techs follow the same system as techs from huts and stealing, but it is different... )