which is better?

[East Street Trader]

A part of the argument for sleazing is that the cost of building city improvements doesn't pay off as compared to establishing more small cities and building units.

I lack any impirical basis for challenging that but I suspect where the balance truly falls depends on how long the game lasts. That is because the benefit of improvements grows exponentially as the game progesses. The marketplace alone may not pay as compared to establishing a dozen or three more cities, but what about when a bank, stock exchange and superhighways are added (plus three good routes, of course)?

If the sleazer, with all his units, can finish off the AI before the perfectionist's strategy would have had time to come to fruition (or, in MP can, I take it, get at the perfectionist before the exponential benefits cut in) then his strategy may well appear superior.

No surprise to find that exponents of ICS appear to be militarily aggressive whereas perfectionists mostly depend (early on at least) upon good defence.

But I harbour doubts. If the perfectionist can get onto the attack militarily (as a means of long term defence) and make use of the windows of opportunity which exist when technically more advanced units temporarily can overcome the defence advantage which exists pre-howie; plus bog the sleazer down at a front line far enough away from his home cities then I suspect that the balance will steadily swing to the perfectionist the longer the game lasts.

I rather imagine that one of the tactical questions to be answered in MP is how to make use of the diplo/spy? Easy for the sleazer - he just destroys improvements or bribes the fat perfectionist cities, dealing hard blows to his opponent thereby. But how to hit the sleazer? His little cities are hardly worth giving up a diplomat to acquire (briefly no doubt) by bribery and they have no improvements to destroy?

Certainly the perfectionist must (1) try to deny the sleazer HG. If he can't achieve that he must (2) organise his research path with an eye to making HG obsolete asap. Maybe he also (3) asks the diplomatic corps (in collaboration with the military) to look very hard indeed for the city with HG in it?

In time, these matters will be tested. We owe it to those who devised the game to demonstrate that no one strategy can always prevail. SO DEATH TO ICS I SAY. LET THE SLEAZER BEWARE, THE CARAVAN HAS HIM IN ITS SIGHTS.
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited November 17, 2000).]

[Smash]

hehe..nothing worse than seeing a vet pike with settler on your gold mountain in no city bribe games.
Building on specials is not as viable on 1x.2x you are just asking for trouble if you leave your specials "open"

[drake]

Love to play you sometime ming....

[Ming]

And just a further point when it comes to MP. The days of building on a four special spot are passing into the night. Unless you are willing to agressively defend those squares, somebody is going to appear our of nowhere and build a city right on one of them. If I find gold, I build on it!

[drake]

ICS people say:

Expand! Expand! Expand! More! More! More! We don't care if our empire is made up of shacks and shanty towns!

Perfectionists say:

Get the hell off of my buffalo square you goddam plague of locusts! Our grand metropolis is trying to complete a stock exchange!

ICS people say:

What is....Stock Exchange?

Thats what I relate to players who only use Ics- a plague....a sleazy plague

But I say do whatever you find to be the most fun...thats whats most important after all.

[kcbob]

I think that's about the best graph/chart I've ever seen in my life. All I seem to be able to do is keyboard characters in Courier font.

But with regards to your question, I'm finding that it's easier to start ICS and work my way to PE (Perfectionist Expansionism) through "bleeding" as Smash referred to. If I try to start PE, it is much tougher.

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Frodo lives!

[drake]

Those explanations are much more sufficient...thank you guys. Does anyone have a better argument for going perfectionist rather than ics?

Having "sleaze" everywhere doesn't set well with my empire, but neither does sitting last on the power graph. I prefer a little of both worlds. But the method of attaining both (that I use) is time consuming and requires good diplomatic skill......it also requires a great deal of patience, which I have seen a lack of in the mp world.....



What does anyone think of this?

[Smash]

Assuming average terrain(whatever that is) then I believe an ICS type start is best.Then bleed out "settler" cities at some point.


[This message has been edited by Smash (edited November 17, 2000).]

[Moker Guy]

Im sure i play quite differnt then most people here but i always build my cities very close, in 2x2x and 1x1x. The key to building cities close is to improve the land that you have. You also must take into consideration of how much food you will be able to give the city once it is reaching maximum space size. One place that i build cities even closer togther is port cities on the ocean. make a harbor and you increase your food automatically. with these cities i try and cover as much of the ocean as possible and leave the land spaces for cities inland. this helps to boost your trade faster as well.

Moker

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Im here to play civ. Screw all of this political BS. Give me a game of civ with good players, that are more than just robots, and im having fun. I bet everyone else is too. Who cares who wins or loses? Its better to make friends than make enemies. Who knows you might run into a very important person on here.

Oh yeah EyesOfNight is the most pathetic person i have ever ment in my life.

[Ming]

drake... yes, territory is important. And yes, you should take as much as you can. But there is a finite amount of land... especially when everbody is fighting for the same land. Let me put it this way... If you and I both have the same amount of land, and I have 20 cities with some overlap, and you have 12 cities with no overlap... I'll take my chances

[Scouse Gits]

drake - the game is all about power. To have power you must have power bases - cities. Each city contributes the tools of power - gold, science and production. You can put down 10/100 overlapping cities, linked by a road system, much faster than building them in the ideally placed perfectionist mode.

The game is about territory, but in the initial stage you must to have enough force to threaten your opponents' territories, as well as defending your own. The best method of defence is attack!

Suppose you share your continent with the Mongols. Would you rather have 30 cities building chariots and diplos or just five?

I am an ICS player at heart - there is nothing wrong with the Perfectionist approach. However, in my limited experience of MP it is imperative to have a power surge from turn one. That means building cities close together, if only to have enough caravan production for a key wonder or two.

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SG (2)

[drake]

quote: In MP games, I go overlapping cities. Since everybody is aggressively going for turf, if you limit yourself to no overlap, you run out of room to start additional cities.

Ming, this is confusing. If you want to capture territory, you want to use as much space as possible right? So if you don't overlap your cities, you're getting more land mass.....correct? Do you mean building the most cities is a good way to prevent getting the shaft when the city limit for the planet has been reached....please explain....?????

[N35t0r]

i personally often overlap in order to fit in cities more efficiently.

also, in small free spaces i always fund cities which remain small...

[Ming]

Thanks for posting the link... I was looking for it, and then got lost reading old threads

In MP games, I go overlapping cities. Since everybody is aggressively going for turf, if you limit yourself to no overlap, you run out of room to start additional cities. If I get a good four special pattern on the start, I will usually build my first two cities almost on top of each other so each can utilize two specials.
Less corruption that way, and you get your cities down fast.

[DaveV]

quote: Originally posted by Ridock The Savage on 11-16-2000 09:41 AM Damn...didnt know that AI bombers never crash...how else does the AI cheat?

This thread contains a pretty comprehensive list: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=08:38