OCC fortnight #15 - discussion and logs

[Tom DeMille]

I think I remember seeing a Civ-ToT file converter in the downloads section of apolyton.

[Ribannah]

We found out about the big ocean when we bribed a Barbarian frigate!!

AC: 1905
Score: 572 (74%)

-4000 Athens
-3950 Peace
-3850 War
-3750 Alphabet, Warriors
-3500 Warriors, Size 2
-3150 Ceremonial Burial
-3000 Size 3, Cease Fire
-2900 Temple
-2800 Warriors
-2600 Bronze Working
-2300 B Leader (100)
-2200 B Leader (100), Size 4
-2000 Code of Laws
-1850 War
-1800 R Warrior
-1550 Monarchy
-1450 MONARCHY, B Leader (100)
-1250 R Warrior
-1200 R Warrior
-1150 COLOSSUS, R Warrior
-1100 Peace, T(raded for) Writing
-1000 Library, Size 5
-975 Mysticism, War, R Warrior
-950 R Warrior
-925 B Leader (100)
-900 Diplomat, S Pottery
-875 Granary
-800 Size 6
-775 B Leader (100)
-750 Diplomat, Embassy
-725 Currency
-700 Marketplace
-675 Size 7
-625 Diplomat
-550 Diplomat, Size 8
-525 Trade
-450 Coal
-400 Coal to R (42)
-375 Masonry, R Archer
-350 Silver
-325 Silver to Nicosia (44)
-300 R Archer
-250 Wine, Construction
-200 Aquaduct, Wine to Nicosia (44)
-175 Size 9
-150 R Archer
-125 B(ribed) B(arbarian) diplomat
-100 Mathematics, Fortress on East Silk
-50 Size 10
20 B Leader (100)
40 B Leader (100)
60 Astronomy, B Leader (100)
80 COPERNICUS' OBSERVATORY
100 Size 11
120 Literacy
200 Philosophy, The Republic
220 REPUBLIC
240 B Leader (100)
280 Medicine, Size 12
300 R Horseman
340 Horseback Riding
380 R Chariot
420 The Wheel
460 SHAKESPEARE'S THEATRE
500 Engineering
520 B Leader (100), R Chariot
560 City Walls
580 Sanitation
600 Sewer System, WLtCD, R Chariot
620 Size 13
640 Size 14
660 University, Size 15
680 University, Size 16
700 Size 17, R Chariot
720 Theory of Gravity, Size 18
740 Size 19
760 Size 20, R Legion, Construction to R, Cease Fire
780 Size 21
800 Invention, WLtCD cancelled
860 Banking
920 Warrior Code
980 Iron Working
1020 ISAAC NEWTON'S COLLEGE
1040 Bridge Building, B B Legion (NONE)
1060 Bank, T Feudalism, Peace, B Leader
1080 Size 22
1100 Economics, WLtCD, Sneak by R, G Diplomat (our only loss!!)
1120 Stock Exchange, Size 23, R Chariot
1140 WLtCD cancelled
1220 Gunpowder
1260 King Richard's Crusade
1280 Chemistry
1340 Explosives, R Settler
1400 Seafaring, R Elephant
1440 LEONARDO'S WORKSHOP, Peace, T Polytheism
1460 Engineers, Metallurgy
1480 B B Legion
1510 Navigation, R Sneak, R Elephant
1540 Physics
1570 Magnetism
1580 ADAM SMITH'S TRADING CO.
1600 Electricity
1620 R Knights
1630 HANGING GARDENS, Refrigeration
1640 WLtCD
1650 Supermarket
1660 Diplomat, Democracy, Size 23, DEMOCRACY, B B Crusaders
1670 Size 24, B Leader (100)
1680 Size 25, Peace, T Chivalry
1690 Conscription, B Leader (100), B Leader
1700 Size 26
1710 WLtPD cancelled
1720 Steam Engine, R Sneak, R Knights
1730 Cloth, 2 R Settlers
1750 Food, Railroad
1752 Engineers, Size 25
1756 Leadership
1758 R Legion
1760 R Knights
1762 Tactics
1768 Industrialization, R Kegion, R Knights
1770 DARWIN'S VOYAGE, The Corporation, Electronics, WLtPD
1772 Size 26
1774 Factory, Size 27
1776 WLtPD cancelled, Peace
1780 Food
1782 Food, Sneak
1784 Food, Combustion, R Settler
1786 Food
1788 Food
1790 Food
1792 Food, R Legion
1794 Oil, WLtPD, R Legion
1796 Food, Size 28
1798 Food, Automobile, Size 29
1800 Superhighways, Size 30, Sold Granary
1802 Food, Size 31
1804 Food, Machine Tools, Size 32, R Knights
1806 Food, B Leader (100), R Crusaders
1808 Food, B Leader (100), Legion
1810 Food, Miniaturization, Oil to Rome (112), Cloth to Rome (112)
1812 10 Food to Wonder
1814 HOOVER DAM, sold Hydroplant, Peace, T Monotheism
1816 Mass Production
1818 Mass Transit, B Leader (100), R Sneak, R Crusaders
1822 Computers, Grassland into Hill
1824 SETI Program, B Leader (100)
1826 Oil, Atomic Theory
1828 Gems
1830 Food, Nuclear Fission
1832 Food, B Leader (100), B B Frigate (NONE), R Legion, R Crusaders
1834 Food, Nuclear Power, R Knights
1836 Food
1838 Food, The Laser
1840 Food
1842 Food, Mobile Warfare, R Knights, R Crusaders
1844 Food
1846 Food, Robotics, R Catapult, R Legion
1848 Food, Gems to Rome (108), Oil to Rome (108), Crusaders
1850 Food, Communism, R Knights
1851 Food, Peace
1852 Food, Grassland to Hills
1853 Food, Flight, R Sneak, R Crusaders
1854 Oil, R Catapult
1855 Cloth
1856 Food, Radio
1857 Manufacturing Plant
1858 Barracks
1859 Armor, Advanced Flight
1862 Rocketry
1864 R Crusaders
1865 Space Flight, R Knights
1866 Apollo Program
1867 SSS, Peace, R Steal Space Flight, War
1868 SSS, Plastics, R Crusaders
1869 SSS
1870 SSS
1871 SSS, Superconductor, Sold Aquaduct, R Crusaders
1872 SSS
1873 SSS, R Diplomat, R Crusaders
1874 SSS
1875 SSS, Fusion Power, R Diplomat, R Crusaders
1876 SSS
1877 SSS, R Diplomat, R Settlers, R Crusaders
1878 SSS
1879 SSS
1880 SSS
1881 SSM
1882 SSM
1883 SSC, Peace
1884 SSC
1885 SSC
1886 SSC, R Sneak, R Knights, R Crusaders
1887 SSC, R Diplomat, R Crusaders
1888 SSC
1889 SSM, Theology, R Crusaders
1890 SSS, LAUNCH, R Knights
1891 EIFFEL TOWER, R Diplomat
1893 Genetic Engineering
1896 MAGELLAN'S EXPEDITION
1897 Recycling
1898 LIGHTHOUSE
1900 MARCO POLO'S EMBASSY
1901 Environmentalism
1902 GREAT LIBRARY, Peace
1904 CURE FOR CANCER, WLtPD
1905 ALPHA CENTAURI

* Score 572 (74%) *


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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[SCG]

Hey Paul,

do you think you could post a chart with the dates corresponding to selected turn numbers on your OCC page, maybe having a link to it from the comparison tables?

It seems like i remember seeing one somewhere in this forum but don't remember where, and that would certainly make things easier for the newer OCCer's to interpret it. Working through the OCC games I started printing out the comparison tables from my completed games, but I was constantly converting between the dates in my logs and the turn numbers in the table.

And as a side note to comparison tables, once you come close to what other good OCCers have done, it really is a big help to see where you went wrong. In #9 (my most recently finished game), I can see that the stretch from sanitation to refrigeration is where I lost it. I was actually first to size 21, and first to Shakes, but was one of the slowest to go from sanitation to refrigeration. Maybe I really should have built Darwins... Look out in #16, I may be a force to contend with

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

[Paul]

I already have such a list on my site: http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/turns.htm

After oedo's discovery about revolutions I just updated the list with asterisks behind the turns in which new governments will be established.

[tonic]

SCG: No doubt about it, once on the learning curve, the snowball effect comes into play.

I've termed the comparison learning "incremental learning". I've found that playing through the extant comparison games up to a certain stage and comparing where I am, is extremely helpful. So my first objective stage was something like Republic Govt. and when I've learnt where my mistakes were, the next stage would be "Democracy" and so on.

Although the "incidents" in each fortnightly comparison game would be apparent from the reading of the logs, it would also be interesting to have a little addendum to the table like "major problems" eg global warming, Barb activity...which give an insight into the result achieved.

[Scouse Gits]

Ribanah - I noticed the 'We' are you also more than one person hiding behind a single handle??


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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[Tom DeMille]

probably the royal we...

quote: but was one of the slowest to go from sanitation to refrigeration. Maybe I really should have built Darwins...

SCG, you should go for refrigeration before going for railroad. Your above statement suggests you detoured to railroad, which would explain why you were slower than others.

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by Tom SCG, you should go for refrigeration before going for railroad. Your above statement suggests you detoured to railroad, which would explain why you were slower than others.

good catch, i checked some of my logs, and while i went for sanitation before railroad in some of the games, i didn't in that one. Kind of a surprise for me as I'm one of those who seems to focus on growth over science more than some of the others here. I'm still trying to decide whether I'd rather have wheat or silk - i'm starting to lean towards wheat at this point. Also I think I may be leaning to wine over gold (i know, they don't convert to each other), although that will take a bit more testing.

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

[Ribannah]

And here we were tending towards silk over wheat. My goblins and I, that is - go to my home page to find out more

Btw I tried another strategy for this scenario: going to Republic straight away, bypassing Monarchy. We reached AC in 1891.

I'm playing #15 a third time; now we give all our new tech to the Romans right away, instead of trying to trade (which is HARD in MGE!), in order to keep the lagging-behind bonus. They won't start wonders anyway.

Btw, has anyone seen Nicosia grow beyond size 8? In my games, they never build in aquaduct, while they do have plenty of extra food. They simply keep making military units (and explorers, yuck!) to throw them away at my defence.

- Rib -

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Ribannah]

Hey! My new strategy worked, the first discoveries came real fast with the Romans always in the lead - til they didn't want any more free techs and started their well-known skirmishes and betrayals. Still couldn't kill my initial Phalanx, fortified on the silk, and believe me, they tried

I also took up the habit of posting my caravans on the shore - leaving open just the one gap for barbarians where they would immediately attack Athens, to keep those gold servings coming.
Further, we turned two river squares into hills, and the one wheat into a third silk.
Something noteworthy: the Romans were (again) able to build a unit every turn, despite having only 8 shields or so, and still gaining money in the process. I'm almost sure that they were able to create TWO units a turn at some point!

OCC #15
Deity
AC: 1868

Monarchy: -1850
Republic: -225
Democracy: 860

Colossus: -1900
Copernicus: -450
Shakespeare: 160
Newton: 740
Darwin: 1620
Apollo: 1808

Trade routes: -925, -875, -825

Size 12: 260
Size 21: 1020

Trade: -975
Construction: -300
Sanitation: 460
Refrigeration: 1360

Automobile: 1620
Computer: 1760
Space Flight: 1806

-4000 Athens, using silk/r
-3950 Peace
-3800 Bronze Working, to R
-3650 Phalanx, started Colossus
-3600 wheat irrigated/road, switching
-3350 Alphabet, S2
-2900 Code of Laws, to R
-2750 wine mined
-2650 S3
-2400 Ceremonial Burial, to R
-2150 B Leader
-2000 B pillaged wheat
-1950 B Leader
-1900 COLOSSUS, Monarchy, to R
-1850 MONARCHY, B Leader
-1800 Temple
-1600 Phalanx, S4
-1550 B Leader
-1500 WLtKD
-1400 Writing
-1350 Library
-1200 Currency, to R
-1150 Marketplace
-975 Trade, to R, B Leader
-950 Hides, S5
-925 Hides to N (44)
-900 Mysticism, to R
-875 Silver to N (44)
-850 Coal
-825 Masonry, Coal to N (46)
-800 Hides
-750 Hides, Mathematics, to R
-700 B Leader
-675 Hides
-650 Astronomy, to R
-625 Hides
-575 Hides, B Leader, 5 Hides to Wonder
-500 Literacy, to R
-450 COPERNICUS' OBSERVATORY, S6
-425 Philosphy, University
-350 Pottery, B Leader
-325 University
-300 Construction, Philosophy to R
-275 Hides
-225 The Republic, REPUBLIC
-200 S7, sold Temple
-175 Hides, Medicine, War
-125 Hides, R Horsemen
-100 R Catapult
-75 Banking
-25 B Leader, R Br Phalanx, R Phalanx
20 Warrior Code
120 Economics, 4 Hides to Wonder
160 SHAKESPEARE'S THEATRE
180 WLtCD
200 S9, The Republic to R, Cease Fire
220 Horseback Riding, S10
240 S11
260 S12, B Leader
280 Bank
300 The Wheel
340 Hides, Peace
380 Engineering
400 Hides
460 Hides, Sanitation
520 WLtCD
540 Sewer System, S13, R Sneak Horsemen
560 Theory of Gravity, S14, R Catapult
580 S15
600 Cloth, S16
620 S17, B leader
640 Food, Iron Working, S18
660 S19
680 Food, S20
700 S21
720 Food, Bridge Building, WLtCD cancelled
740 ISAAC NEWTON'S COLLEGE
780 Stock Exchange, Invention
820 Wine
840 Democracy
860 Cloth, DEMOCRACY
880 R Horsemen
900 Food, Gunpowder
920 R Catapult, Wine to N (50)
940 Food, Chemistry, Cloth to N (47), R Horsemen
960 Horsemen, R Explorer
980 Explosives
1000 Engineers, S20, WLtPD
1020 S21
1040 Wine, Map Making, S22, R Catapult
1060 S23, R Horsemen
1080 Food, WLtPD cancelled
1100 Metallurgy, R Catapult, R Horsemen
1120 Food
1140 Diplomat, B B Legion, St Navigation
1160 Seafaring, Wine to N (53), R Chariot
1180 Wine, R Catapult
1200 Physics, Peace
1220 Food, WLtPD
1240 S24, R Sneak Chariot
1260 Food, Magnetism, WLtPD cancelled
1280 R Catapult, R Chariot
1300 Food, wheat into silk, 4 Food to Wonder
1320 PYRAMIDS, Electricity, R Catapult, R Chariot
1340 Hides, to R (54), Wine to R (81), R Phalanx
1360 Refrigeration
1380 Supermarket
1400 R Chariot
1420 Engineers, Steam Engine, R Pikemen, R Catapult
1440 B Leader
1460 Hides
1480 Railroad
1500 Wine
1510 Hides
1520 Industrialization, R Catapult, R Chariot
1530 Hides, WLtPD, Peace, Tr Feudalism
1540 S24, Hides to N (36)
1550 Hides, The Corporation, S25
1560 S26
1570 Hides, WLtPD cancelled
1580 Refining, Tr Chivalry
1590 Hides, R Sneak Chariot
1600 R Chariot, WLtPD, R Knights
1610 S27, B Leader, R Knights
1620 DARWIN'S VOYAGE, Combustion, Automobile, S28, R Catapult
1630 Superhighways, R Pikemen
1640 Electronics
1650 Oil, R Catapult, R Knights
1660 Conscription, R Settlers
1670 Hides, R Catapult, R Knights
1680 Leadership
1690 Hides, WLtPD, R Catapult, B Leader, R Knights
1700 S29
1710 Hides, to N (109), Tactics, S30, R Catapult, R Knights
1730 Factory, Machine Tools, R catapult, sold Sewer System, Hides to N (146), R Knights
1750 Miniaturization, R Catapult, R Settlers, Peace
1754 Hydroplant, sold Aquaduct
1756 Mass Production, Hides to N (95), Hides to N (142), Hides to N (142)
1758 Mass Transit, B Leader
1760 Hides, Computers
1762 Research Lab
1764 Hides, Atomic Theory
1766 Hides, B Leader
1768 Hides, Nuclear Power
1770 Hides
1772 Hides, Nuclear Fission, plains into hills
1774 Hides
1776 Hides, Mobile Warfare
1778 Barracks, di Horsemen
1780 Armor, Robotics, War, R Catapult, R Settlers, R Knights, R Knights
1782 Hides
1784 Hides, Flight
1786 Hides, grassland(s) into hills, R Catapult
1788 Hides
1790 Hides, Radio, R Knights, R Legion
1792 Hides, R Catapult
1794 Gems
1796 Food, Advanced Flight, R Catapult
1798 Food, R Knights
1800 Food
1802 Food, di Legion, Gems to N (68), 7xHides to N (6x91), R Knights
1804 Manufacturing Plant, di Engineers, R Catapult
1806 Space Flight, R Knights
1808 APOLLO PROGRAM, Catapult
1810 SSS, Peace
1812 SSS, Plastics
1814 SSS
1816 SSS
1818 SSS, The Laser
1820 SSS
1822 SSS
1824 SSS, Superconductor
1826 SSS
1828 SSS
1830 SSS, Fusion Power
1832 SSS
1834 SSS
1836 SSS, R Sneak Knights
1838 SSS, R Diplomat, R Musketeers, R Catapult
1840 SSM
1842 SSM, R Diplomat, R Knights
1844 SSM
1846 SSC, R Diplomat, R Musketeers, R Knights
1848 SSC, R Catapult
1850 SSC, R Knights
1851 SSC, R Settlers, R Musketeers, R Catapult
1852 SSC
1853 SSC, LAUNCH, R Settlers, R Pikemen, R Pikemen
1854 R Knights, R Explorer, R Archers
1855 MARCO POLO'S EMBASSY, R Legion
1857 HANGING GARDENS, R Catapult
1858 R Knights
1859 LIGHTHOUSE, Peace
1861 ADAM SMITH'S TRADING CO., dis Engineers, R Sneak Knights, R Catapult
1862 MAGELLAN'S EXPEDITION
1863 R Knights
1864 R Catapult
1865 EIFFEL TOWER, R Settlers
1866 ORACLE
1867 SETI PROGRAM, WLtPD, Peace, Tr Communism
1868 ALPHA CENTAURI

Score 451 (58%)

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 08-21-2000 10:55 AM Btw, has anyone seen Nicosia grow beyond size 8? In my games, they never build in aquaduct, while they do have plenty of extra food. They simply keep making military units (and explorers, yuck!) to throw them away at my defence. - Rib -

Actually, i think the problem with all the explorers we saw was because the Romans are agressive exansionist. Perhaps this scenario should have taken place on a small Japanese island, since the Japanese are agressive perfectionist. That or edited the rules.txt to make the romans perfectionist. I might give #15 another go sometime now that I have about 10 OCC games under my belt instead of just 1 when i did it the first time.

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

[Tom DeMille]

OK, Paul, it's been 2 weeks (I posted occ15 2 tuesday's ago). Can you post Oldman's latest effort now?

(I'm not busy this afternoon, so would like to waste time playing civ )

Oldman, if you read this post before Paul, can you please email me occ16.

[Paul]

OCC16 has been uploaded, see new thread for url.