We love the 'X' day - a crutch for the weaker player?

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Oldman on 05-15-2000 05:46 AM Please Mr Ming, Sir... Do we still have the 150 post limit on these threads? if so please keep an eye on this one!!!!! i mean, "WLTXD crutch for weaker players" It cannot, will not, should not be described as a crutch for weaker players!!

Read the title again. It was "crutch for weaker players?". Note the question mark. I wanted to posit this as a question open to debate, rather than a ruling or just pulled-from-ass observation.

quote: if you don't like the ruling, don't use it in single player, if it's mulitplayer, organise so as not to allow it!! and for occ, it's part of the style of play, we can win at deity without too much hassle, but wltxd addeds another element in that we need to manage. It's bloody hard to use it in such a perfectionist way so as not to lose out on research or earnings. If you've not tried it, give it a go in occ and just see how hard it is to achieve the finish times that some of us get!!! Ok, that's my bit said, i'm done - stick a fork in me!!!!!

That you can't win OCC with it really isn't a convincing argument.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 05-15-2000 12:37 PM He will respond in his "normal" fashion... you can count on that. However, I will disagree with you on another point. He has actually raised some good points in other threads. Not all of his posts come across like many of his posts here do.

Well damn, thanks Ming. I think my participation here is just as useful, but I'll take the fair words nonetheless.

Venger

[vee4473]

Hi,

I didn't have time to read all of the posts for this topic, I read about half of them, so I apologize if what I am about to say has already been said..

Venger seems to think that the designers didn't intend to have "we love the x day" used incessantly to promote population growth.

And that he could understand it if there was a limit to how long or often you could use it...

My only question to Venger to try and convince him that the designers intended it to be used as long as any player wanted is this.

(Aside from the fact that the designer's specifically hinted in the manual that it is great for pop. growth.)

If the designer's never intended it to be used for as long as a player wanted, why didn't they program a limit into the game?

And I don't want to hear that they just overlooked it...I'm SURE that after deciding to include such a powerful option, they would have decided to include a limit to it as well...but it seems like they didn't want to limit it.

[Bohlen]

Ming, please close this thread. It has become a boxing match and a very silly one at that.

[Ming]

You could be right, but I doubt it. It is pretty tough to convince the admin on old lost passwords, because we don't want somebody using another's log on... but it could have happened

But this has just gotten so silly, because it comes down to a matter of opinion. He wants to ignore the fact that even the manual states that dramatic growth will occur. But, that's his opinion, and he is welcome to it.
But there is one more fact here. After ALL of his MANY posts, almost everybody still disagrees with him
[This message has been edited by Ming (edited May 15, 2000).]

[Steve Clark]

quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture who I always look forward to hear from Now I have nothing against Venger, old or new, because I think he is just posting on this thread to try to rile everyone up. He should be commended for selecting an appropriate topic and effectively barbing his fellow Apolytoners.

Yeah, I would agree with that. If you look around at some of the other thread here and in other forums, venger comes across as a *****. Yes, I know, that is an insulting thing to say. In every forum I've been involved with, there are at least one person who is insecure enough to really want to have people respond heatedly to opinions and arrogant enough to trying to control the interpretation of those opinions.

I come to the point now that I don't read his posts anymore. That is my right and of course, my opinion. And please, Mr. venger, don't take this apart and respond to every single word, it is not that important.

[Ming]

He will respond in his "normal" fashion... you can count on that.

However, I will disagree with you on another point. He has actually raised some good points in other threads. Not all of his posts come across like many of his posts here do.

Everybody posts here for different reasons. He is welcome to his reasons...

[War4ever]

Venger, i would have to say that although you didn't start the war... you have no problem adding fuel to the fire. Two wrongs don't make it right, and retaliating to insults is showing a lack of maturity ..... although i must admit i find this thread creative and some of your humour interesting

That all said, how people interpret the rules is their opinion, just like your own. As long as everyone respects each others opinions, then nothing is taken personally...... thus we have no accusations or misunderstandings

The beauty of Apolyton is the difference of opoinion, and comraderie which go hand and hand , along with a willingness of die hard fans to ask and reply to the many topics of this great game.

Venger, i seriously doubt you will find many who will play without the possibility of WLTKD's ........maybe in time , but no one now i think is really interested based on the fact that no one is really convinced of your stance. I think the best point you raised is the one of the interpretation of the rules.......... this has validity as there is no way to know what the programmers wanted without sending a request by email or such

[rah]

I agree War4, It is a matter of opinion. Venger has argued his point long and hard (some may think too hard, but this is a forum) but he doesn't seem to have influenced anyone. All his effort has gone for naught since I doubt anyone will change due to this discussion, (some may take it up as a challange however and if the do, more power to them) He sure did rile up the crew though and that's always fun. I am surprised that some of the regulars were so easy to bait. But again that what keeps it interesting around here. We probably need a few other vengers around for fun. (especially if he ever learns when enough is enough and it just becomes tiresome) I would do a beating a dead horse joke but AH might get offended.

RAH

[Oldman]

Rah, I made a "Get off your high horse joke" to AH on his "Bribing units is cheating" thread, but he didn't even acknowledge it!!! maybe i scared him, with my rapier like wit!!! ha ha!!

[Steve Clark]

War4ever! Is that you my friend? How did your old name get dragged into this??

[Oldman]

Aaahhhhh!!! it's like a big ol' reunion!!! isn't that soooooo sweet!!! it sort of gets you inside doesn't it?!!?!?

Don't mean to pick on you guys!!! - have we hit 150 yet?????

[vik]

war3ever,

(i couldn't resist)

war4ever,

One disagreement on your assessment of the designer's intent: as was said earlier, I believe it is irrelevant. If all the designers got together and said "Yah, the population explosion is exactly what we intended with the WLTxD, I still don't think you would answer Venger's question as he worded it. Even if they did intend the population explosion, it really does not answer if it is a so-called "crutch" for the "weaker" player?

So instead of focusing on the "righteousness" of whether to use WLTxD or not, I focused on the word "crutch."

I contend, as I have contended ever since page one of this thread (and I belive Venger acknowledged it), that if WLTxD is available to all players -- weak, mediocre, strong, and/or elite players -- then it is truly not a "crutch" for just the weaker players.


Agree with me you do? Hmmmmm?

[War4ever]

Rah, Steve , Oldman.... i got my proper handle back finally...... and I think i have it worked out for one night a week of MP..... say WEDNESDAYS Beaver and Ferrets unite and take up arms !!!!

Vik , i agree with what your saying, it really is irrelevant.... however that aside, its not a crutch but a reward for hard and perfectly timed playing. It took me awhile to master WLTKD and i guarrantee that if you don't learn to use it , you will lose more than you will win.

No strat is perfect..... not one of them..... there are always mistakes and nuances that wreak havoc on any well conceived plan but done correctly, WLTKD is a force to reckon with and on a large map almost a necessity in MP especially if you are dueling an icser or another fast growth operative and we all know who they are

Its nice to see someone other than Alexanders Horse be the straw that stirs the pot.... perhaps we should rename Venger.... Strawberry

Anyways..... i am off to grease my abacus

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by vee4473 on 05-15-2000 10:18 PM My only question to Venger to try and convince him that the designers intended it to be used as long as any player wanted is this.

The same reason the powergraph is useless. They simply never forsaw what the code in the hand of a skilled player can do!

quote: (Aside from the fact that the designer's specifically hinted in the manual that it is great for pop. growth.)

But Civ wide, for 12 turns? I just find that level of growth a little nuts.

quote: If the designer's never intended it to be used for as long as a player wanted, why didn't they program a limit into the game? And I don't want to hear that they just overlooked it...I'm SURE that after deciding to include such a powerful option, they would have decided to include a limit to it as well...but it seems like they didn't want to limit it.

Why'd they do a number of things is a question to this day. That being said, why would you want to take advantage of something that seems so ridiculously powerful? It's one thing to have WLTYYYD, another to depend on it to win.

Venger