We love the 'X' day - a crutch for the weaker player?

[Smash]

I'm really starting to dislike the "reply with quote" feature

[Alexander's Horse]

Ever feel like you'd be present even if you never posted on a thread?

[The Mad Monk]

quote: Originally posted by Smash on 05-13-2000 02:59 PM I'm really starting to dislike the "reply with quote" feature

Somehow, I don't think he's using it.

[Crustacian]

A one city challenge player against the AI's could say that people who play against the AI with more than one city are weak and in need of a crutch, but that would sound silly, and no one would argue that having more than one city was or was not intended by the game designers....BLA BLA BLA

And if they tried to proove how playing with more than one city was incorect well?

But if that same person said they prefered to play with only one city cuz playing with more didn't seem like enough of a chalenge, explaining why bla bla bla... and what do you all prefer? It would be differant.

BTW Venger you once said that republic was necissary (as compared to WLPD which you said was not)in the beginning of this thread but it is not. In your oppinion it is, but you can have a challenge and play the ai as a despot all the way through if you want.... it is all the same thing. But if you did play the AI as a despot all the way through would you call every one who used rep or dem weak?

The manual is a point of referance. A good argumant needs one that is mutually acceptable. By it your argument is completly lost. But you say you don't hold to it and even try to interpret the intent of the designers. Hardly anyone agrees with your interpritation, and that is for SP civ, not MP civ.

I think an MP game with max lux settings of 20-30% would make an interesting variation, but 100% (tho never necissary to get WLPD results in my games) is allowable by the game if you have a govt that allows that much and have enough bucks to pay your expenses while you do.

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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus
[This message has been edited by Crustacian (edited May 13, 2000).]

[cavebear]

Forgive me for observing that the tenor of the discussion has changed somewhat of late.

What was a very reasonable question about the value and intended purpose of WLTxD seems to have gotten "just a tad" out of hand.

My sincere appreciation to Venger for bringing up the question (which I found interesting). My equal appreciation to those who discussed the idea at length.

Both sides did well, and it is worthwhile to question things that *can* be done (and defend that they *should* be done.

Can we ease off a bit on the personal stuff, though?

[SandMonkey]

At the risk of getting verbally b*tch slapped by Venger -

It's over man. Really. I read the whole thing. You made some good points, at first. But now all you do is try to make witty comebacks and belittle everyone. Through the first few posts you had some decent arguments. But after that, you just became a jackass. Earlier, someone said you belong in the OT. I now fully agree. And now i wait to get verbally bashed by Venger for expressing my opinion - **Gasp!** something this entire thread is based on...

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SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky ecky ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Check out my 1602 A.D. site

edited for gramatical errors
[This message has been edited by SandMonkey (edited May 14, 2000).]

[SilverDragon]

quote: Originally posted by Crustacian on 05-11-2000 12:50 AM I am not sure why you associate my words with Yoda's I wonder whos words would you have associated Yoda's with when you first heard his?

That is Yodaesque too

[SandMonkey]

quote: Originally posted by Venger on 05-14-2000 12:28 PM P.S. I noticed you did not address whether you thought using WLTYYYD is a valid strategy or not. Now, that would seem to make your post OFF TOPIC. It did nothing but express your opinions about me, not about anything related to Civ. Ironic, no, complaining someone posts nothing but off topic attacks by posting an off topic attack?

Correct me if i am wrong.. bu haven't 2 of your last 3 posts been off topic?

And if you want me to recite the things that everyone else has said... okay!

I don't feel it is a crutch b/c it was obviously designed into the game. you may feel it wasn't designed to be used to grow cities huge very quickly, but that is your opinion. only the game designer can tell you if that was intended or not.

And, for my final thought on this topic... instead of defending yourself against everyone, why don't you just respond the the quotes that are on the topic? I dunno, that would probably kill the thread... but hey, i don't know anything, so don't even bother listening to me...


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SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky ecky ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Check out my 1602 A.D. site

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by SandMonkey on 05-14-2000 12:42 AM At the risk of getting verbally b*tch slapped by Venger - It's over man. Really. I read the whole thing. You made some good points, at first. But now all you do is try to make witty comebacks and belittle everyone.

Right, like in my reply to Shamrock, filled with off topic vitriol and personal attacks. Or my response to JERandall, where I couldn't get over someone disagreeing with me I had to just attack him over and over. Oh and in responding to cavebear and hydey. I jumped all over them too...

quote: Through the first few posts you had some decent arguments. But after that, you just became a jackass.

Hmm, should I respond in kind and use a witty comeback, so you can then whine in another post about personal insults? Yes, look Venger, you called SandMonkey a bad name. No Venger, it doesn't matter that he called you a jackass, because I don't read the parts you reply to, it only matters that you used a critical reply. Bad Venger, bad.

When admonishing someone for their behavior, it's best to not exhibit the failings you accuse others of.

quote: Earlier, someone said you belong in the OT. I now fully agree.

You're right, the validity of WLTYYYD has nothing to do with Civ, it fits better with whatever inane banter occurs in the off topic forums.

quote: And now i wait to get verbally bashed by Venger for expressing my opinion - **Gasp!** something this entire thread is based on...

I'm curious - if the thread is so distasteful, so unworthy of your time or participation, why take the time to bother replying in it? If it's all about Venger and wanting to attack people, why stoop so low as to get in the mud with me? Is it that you just can't resist the temptation to play hall monitor? You know, you can't ignore someone, you have to demonstrate your magnanimus maturity by correcting me, for my benefit.

Venger
P.S. I noticed you did not address whether you thought using WLTYYYD is a valid strategy or not. Now, that would seem to make your post OFF TOPIC. It did nothing but express your opinions about me, not about anything related to Civ. Ironic, no, complaining someone posts nothing but off topic attacks by posting an off topic attack?

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Crustacian on 05-13-2000 11:06 PM BTW Venger you once said that republic was necissary (as compared to WLPD which you said was not)in the beginning of this thread but it is not. In your oppinion it is, but you can have a challenge and play the ai as a despot all the way through if you want.... it is all the same thing. But if you did play the AI as a despot all the way through would you call every one who used rep or dem weak?

No. I would consider someone who can win as a despot on DBM7 pretty damn skilled though! However, a government type I would not consider a crutch because the government can only be used a certain way - it is not a game effect.

quote: The manual is a point of referance. A good argumant needs one that is mutually acceptable. By it your argument is completly lost. But you say you don't hold to it and even try to interpret the intent of the designers. Hardly anyone agrees with your interpritation, and that is for SP civ, not MP civ.

As JERandall points out, it's not really possible to interpret the intent without finding and asking them.

As to agreement, that someone disagrees is no suprise. I would offer that some people have looked at this issue in a new way, and may over time come somewhat to the conclusion that WLTYYYD was designed to be an ends, not a means to an end.

quote: I think an MP game with max lux settings of 20-30% would make an interesting variation, but 100% (tho never necissary to get WLPD results in my games) is allowable by the game if you have a govt that allows that much and have enough bucks to pay your expenses while you do.

I'd probably say 40% as a good hard cap. If you bump to Rep early, sometimes you need it just to maintain order. By the late game 40% will give you WLTYYYD nearly in perpetuity, but it won't be as easy to make WLTYYYD occur wide with a large number of cities with a hard 40% cap.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk on 05-13-2000 10:08 PM Somehow, I don't think he's using it.

Sure I am, I just respond point by point inserting my own quote tags...

Venger
P.S. Albert, in a can is PURE GENIUS. Better not post much or you'll blow it with your next promotion...

[Oldman]

Please Mr Ming, Sir...

Do we still have the 150 post limit on these threads? if so please keep an eye on this one!!!!! i mean, "WLTXD crutch for weaker players"

It cannot, will not, should not be described as a crutch for weaker players!! if you don't like the ruling, don't use it in single player, if it's mulitplayer, organise so as not to allow it!! and for occ, it's part of the style of play, we can win at deity without too much hassle, but wltxd addeds another element in that we need to manage. It's bloody hard to use it in such a perfectionist way so as not to lose out on research or earnings. If you've not tried it, give it a go in occ and just see how hard it is to achieve the finish times that some of us get!!!
Ok, that's my bit said, i'm done - stick a fork in me!!!!!

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Oldman,

"There are not more than 5 musical notes..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 primary colours..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 cardinal tastes..." - Sun Tzu

And we build an Academy for this guy


Edited: those bloody smilies!!
[This message has been edited by Oldman (edited May 15, 2000).]

[Sten Sture]

quote: Originally posted by Smash on 05-13-2000 02:59 PM I'm really starting to dislike the "reply with quote" feature

LoL!

quote: Originally posted by Venger multiple times over a short span You are not allowed to post LoLs in my very serious thread

Ooops, I forgot about that...

quote: Originally posted by Venger multiple times over a short span You are not funny, you vagrant sodomite, I am the only one allowed to use sarcasm in this thread

Looks like I have been sent home by the official goose-stepping civ nazi.

Seriously, this clown shows up with a b2-15-99 sign-up date and 5 posts, and then he starts flaming everyone twenty times a day in one thread to build up his post count. I want to bet that the one we know as "Venger" was not the original Venger that posted here in 98/99. If I were going to get a DL, I would look for an old relatively unused login, and email Markos that I had come back after a lengthy absence and forgotten my password. Poof! Reset password, and a very old login becomes a DL.

Now I have nothing against Venger, old or new, because I think he is just posting on this thread to try to rile everyone up. He should be commended for selecting an appropriate topic and effectively barbing his fellow Apolytoners. I am just curious who he was before taking on the Venger name...

Any guesses??

[Oldman]

Mr Ming sir...

You are very diplomatic aren't you!!!! are you sure you're not a politician??? sorry, no offence intended!!!!

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture on 05-15-2000 11:28 AM Looks like I have been sent home by the official goose-stepping civ nazi.

Huh?

quote: Seriously, this clown shows up with a b2-15-99 sign-up date and 5 posts, and then he starts flaming everyone twenty times a day in one thread to build up his post count. I want to bet that the one we know as "Venger" was not the original Venger that posted here in 98/99. If I were going to get a DL, I would look for an old relatively unused login, and email Markos that I had come back after a lengthy absence and forgotten my password. Poof! Reset password, and a very old login becomes a DL.

He he he...now THAT'S funny...I'd be curious to read my old posts. I wonder if the few that were there would be of the same style. Somehow I imagine they'd sound the same as they do now. For a clown...

quote: Now I have nothing against Venger, old or new, because I think he is just posting on this thread to try to rile everyone up.

Nope.

quote: He should be commended for selecting an appropriate topic and effectively barbing his fellow Apolytoners.

Damn, I'm still waiting to see the famous unprecipitated Venger attack post...

quote: I am just curious who he was before taking on the Venger name...

I was a girl named Freida...

Venger