Republic In Peril

[shade]

I always do but barrely need them,btw I will be the offensive force,the last time they send a fleet(that went all the way around the world )they didn't find me(and they only had to move a little north) and I shot like 15 destroyers&cruisers with 2 cruisemissles to kingdom come .
first I'll need to build an army(now my units are outnumbered 2 to 1(and this is also counting 20+ spy and 50+settlers)
good luck with your game to


Shade

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by MSCHINELLI
Rah, great plan...can you explain MP, SP and oedo?

Sorry for answering for RAH but I was here and saw the post.

SP = Single Player

MP = Multiplayer

Oedo = the name of the poster who "discovered" that every fourth turn you can revolt without having any anarchy period. The years in which the revolt can occur has been named an "Oedo Year" The first Oedo year is 3850bc, then every 4th turn thereafter (i.e. 3650bc, 3450bc etc.)

[shade]

Sorry for answering for RAH but I was here and saw the post.

But you forgot to read the next post

Shade

[rah]

Thanks Guys, It's nice to have help when you leave out the details.

I can't add anything else.

RAH

[Spacecow]

I'm surprised I haven't seen my concept anywhere else -

When I go into a Republic, I try to have two improvements in most of my cities - a temple, and marketplace OR HARBOR. The temple and marketplace are pretty obvious in that you reduce unhappy people and increase the number of happy people (assuming you use luxuries). With a harbor, though, assuming you've got a few ocean squares around, you've got all the land improvements you really need for a while with one city improvement. With a harbor in Republic, your oceans give you two food (enough to keep growing per square) and three trade arrows (one more than flat land with a road). Otherwise you need a lot of settler time roading and irrigating so your people eat and remain relatively happy while working the land. Granted, you've gotta think of this beforehand when you're putting cities down, and it tends to hurt your resources if you rely on the oceans too much, but I find it significantly reduces the amount of land improving time (allowing for more city-making time).

-Spacecow

[rah]

Yes harbors can help (many old threads have discussed this), and if you have the tech, it's a good idea to build them in your coastal cities. But, the tech is off the early optimal path so you have to weigh the benefits, and without happy wonders, if you have enough cities, they can only grow so big before you get an unhappy. (for wltkds maximization) Getting to gunpowder and metalurgy first in an MP game is always sweeeeet.

In SP when you can romp to the happiness wonders, harbors can provide a bigger benefit for growth. In MP getting all the happy wonders is considerably more difficult.

RAH

[Edward]

Switching from monarchy to republic is always a pain for me (probably because I do it pretty late in the game and without enough planning) but I think it's worth it for the increased trade arrows. It's probably not worth it if you want to be a war-monger.

If you prefer not to plan too much, artificially high luxury rates can offset the unhappiness caused by the sudden ineffectiveness of your martial law units. Military units away from home however should be put in a city (or fortress near a city) before your switch since they make people unhappy regardless of your luxuries.

Spacecow's harbor suggestion is a good one if you tend to become a republic late in the game. If so, you've probably already discovered Seafaring (if only to get the Explorer unit). The advantage of harbors here is not that they let you get big cities. It's that they let you switch to a republic (losing a lot of food 'cause settlers are now twice as hungry), yet still have enough food WITHOUT having to run around and do a lot of pre-republic irrigating. I find it faster and easier to max taxes and buy a bunch of harbors than to build a bunch of settlers and irrigate a couple squares by every city. (Then again I generally have a large - as in many cities - empire with little terrain improvement. If you have a perfectionistic civ with irrigation everywhere then your milage may vary.) The harbor approach does require consciously trying to place cities on coasts when possible while building your empire. Be warned that your dramatic shift from working land squares to working sea squares can greatly reduce the shields your cities produce. Look to see if your cities will still be able to support their units when this happens.

Owning the Pyramids (unpopular with many Deity level players) gives you a great food buffer during the switch to Republic. Even without a lot of planning you have time to rehome (or perhaps "join city") settlers that are starving their cities.

Hating micromanagement, I usually switch to republic without too much planning and have to suck up the consequences - often having to rehome units (esp. settlers/engineers) to avoid long famines or disbanding due to lack of shields.)

MSCHINELLI,

Shade makes good arguments for becoming a communism. While the tech comes later in the game, you can switch to a communism after the discovery of democracy if you build the Statue of Liberty.

I think shade's "look at your max income/tax after the switch" idea is slightly flawed because it doesn't take into account how good your republic/democracy will be AFTER it finally builds enough religious/trade buildings to no longer require a high luxury rate. Republic definitely has some major short term costs while the switch from monarchy to communism is seamless. I still think you'll climb the tech tree more quickly as a republic/democracy - especially if you prefer a smaller (as in fewer number of cities) empire and make the switch early in the game. (That said, an AC victory is very doable with a communism. In fact communism is the cure for missing happiness wonders regardless of your strategy. It offers a decent science rate and great happiness regardless of your situation.)

[Blaupanzer]

Problem as stated is that the switch from Monarchy to Republic is difficult to manage, especially the first few turns. In that case, switching to Commie, and setting luxuries high enough at first to start celebrations can be the key to victory. This process gets the Republic-level gold from trade squares without the messy growth that WLT_D gives when in Rep/Dem. It will then be possible to back the luxury rate down some but still maintain the celebrating. Plus, no penalty for troops out, not as much need for Happy Wonders, and veteran spies.

I generally wait in Monarchy (Deity, Raging, large map, w/restarts) until I have Bach's to switch to a representative government. The AI seldom pursues Theology, so it's a good Wonder to gauge by. Also, once I start the Cathedral, I can switch units and settlers around to avoid disbanding. If conquering, I'll switch again at Fundy discovery (to Fundy, or to Commie if a few advances are still needed, then to Fundy). For AC, waiting this long in Monarchy beats the heck out of the headaches presented by early Republic.

[Edward]

Blaupanzer,

I hadn't considered how powerful semi-permanent "We Love the Comrade" days can be. You could probably get near republic/democracy science research under a communism merely by ensuring that your SSC continually celebrates. It's a good strategy under monarchy, why not extend it into the "advanced" government forms. The only real advantages of representative governments are growth via "We Love" and democracy's immunity to bribing. Excepting an early AC record attempt, republic and democracy are looking pretty crappy.

You, Rah, and Shade have convinced me of the error of my representative ways. Can anyone defend republic and/or democracy? Is communism + "We Love" too powerful? Should I resurrect the "We Love is a crutch" flame-fest?

[shade]

I think the main problem with the choice you make is caused by the AI.No matter what way of living you persue,if you are the strongest the AI will always try to wipe you out(and gets wooped in the proces ).I think if the AI treated you like the way you acted(peacefull=>don't needless attack you,...),I think the use of the governements could be used to better extend,and then Communism would be less attractive,but since you can be sure you're constantly under attack you'll need a decent army.

==>When you're supreme and the rest of the world isn't a problem anymore=>Demo is the best.


Shade

[rah]

Originally posted by Edward

You, Rah, and Shade have convinced me of the error of my representative ways. Can anyone defend republic and/or democracy? Is communism + "We Love" too powerful? Should I resurrect the "We Love is a crutch" flame-fest?

Every Government has it's uses. Monarchy helps you set up for Republic (by quickly growing to size 8-12), which helps you set up for Communism, which helps you build the complete infrastructure to go into democracy without any happiness problems. Getting a tech every turn is still the goal, and BIG CITIES in Democracy, make this simple( and getting the cities up to maximum size is real helpful). And Fundy whenever you need the crutch. But yes, WLTKDs in commie can be real hot.


RAH

[Carolus Rex]

Hi fellas!

Don't know if anyone brought this up, but I didn't see it when rushreading the thread.

With double production the problems mentioned above (support, food, happiness) are heavily reduced for obvious reasons, especially at lower levels (many play at King in MP). It's also easier to celebrate WLTCD.

Carolus

[DaveV]

I am not a fan of republic - unit support and hungry settlers can be crippling, and corruption will still eat up a lot of those trade arrows you're counting on to keep you out of disorder. Here's an alternative, which I call the Infinite Caravan Sleaze:

Try to find a good trade site early in the game (trade specials, lots of rivers). Ideally, your capital goes there, but it could be any of your first 8-12 cities. Don't build any other cities inside this city's radius; otherwise, play a standard ICS opening. Go for Monarchy first, then trade, then pottery. Build Hanging Gardens and Colossus in your super trade city, start celebrating, then use settlers to build it up to size 8. Discover Contstruction, build an aqueduct and granary, then use food caravans to build up to size 12. Meanwhile, establish three trade routes to the super trade city (STC) from each of your inner cities. The outer cities keep building settlers to establish more cities, then eventually become inner cities and build caravans. Build roads to the STC to get the 50% trade route bonus.

Several paths are available next: go for sanitation and grow to size 20; go for Democracy and SoL, or go for Railroad for another 50% trade route bonus.

Advantages of this technique: you only need to build infrastructure in one city, but you still get most of the trade a republic would generate. A small amount (20% or so) of luxuries should keep your STC celebrating, and the outlying cities will start celebrating once they establish their trade routes to the STC. Upkeep is minimal, since most of your cities contain no improvements. Martial law still works, and should be enough to maintain order. Each city should have a spare supported unit which can be out there annoying your neighbors while you continue building up.

[Edward]

rah,

Ahh! I now see how you're using republic as a stepping stone...

1. Make a bunch of cities under monarchy while settlers aren't hungry. Do minimal Republic preparation by building temples in most/all of your cities.

2. Switch to republic. All your cities have already been founded and you're not going to do any terrain improvement in the near future, so starving settlers aren't an issue. What about republic's happiness problems? Since you're keeping the luxury rate very high, happiness won't be a problem until you lower the luxury rate. Your sneaky idea is that when the luxury rate is finally lowered, you won't be a republic. During step 2 all you're doing is growing your cities quickly via "We Love". (You also saved your trade route caravans until republic for bigger payoffs. 'Though high luxuries are eating your tax and science rates, you use the delivery coin bonus to make buildings to keep the cities celebrating and the delivery beaker bonus to keep up the research.)

3. Switch to communism. Now you can build your infrastructure (terrain improvements & buildings) without the pressure of unhappiness robbing your production and tax/science rate. Communism = no troop-in-field unhappiness, no riot factor, and doubly effective martial law. You can ease down your luxuries until your major cities are just barely celebrating - ensuring continued representative trade arrows. Step 3 is all the more effective since step 2 gave you large cities.

4. Now that your big AND prepared, switch to democracy for super trade/science and immunity to bribing. Coast to AC (or whatever goal suits your fancy).

Very nice.

[rah]

Thanks, couldn't have said it better myself, (or did I?)

The only thing that is slightly different is that I continue to build new cities even in Republic and continue to do so until there is no more land to settle, but at a slightly reduced rate. And a couple of settlers are usually working on the road network. Once a city is size 8/12 and the food box is full, you can run at a negative food flow for quite a while, and as soon as you change governments, you will get the pop back right away.

My only common problem doing this is that I'm moving into Republic earlier and earlier, and then I want to keep squeezing a few more wltkds out of some of the newer cities. I have to learn more discipline in this. If I don't get SOL, sometimes I will stay in republic or fall back into monarchy and try to celebrate my core cities. In sp this never happens, but in MP there are equally talented sharks in the water.

Rich