The Pikeman's defense.

[AkwaticDudeCity]

In some scenarios there are units which the cityadvisor states as: «+50% versus units with a movement factor of 2», but the Defense Minister states the same units as: «x2 vs. horse».

So, what if that unit, in this scenario a Pikeman, gets attacked by a unit with a movement factor of 3, for example a Mameluke which is a horse according to the graphics? How will it defend against it? With +50% vs. units with a movement factor of 2, or with x2 vs. horse?

Which brings us to the Bedouins unit, which have a movement rate of 3 and are camels according to the graphics. What about them, do they ignore the Pikeman's +50% vs. units with a movement factor of 2 as well as his x2 vs. horse?

Has anyone figured this out? Or do i have to run some tests myself?
I'd rather not actually... lazy...

By the way i'm playing the 'Holy Wars scenario by David Morovan' as the Fatimids if that makes any difference.

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ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

[The Mad Monk]

AFAIK, the bonus applies to all units with a movement of two. There is no 'horse' flag for the game to latch on to, but most horse units have a move of two, so it's largely a matter of semantics.

[ottok]

but also elephant!

[AkwaticDudeCity]

So there's no 'horse' flag. That takes care of the camel units.
But about the cavalry, let me clarify what i'm trying to say.
If the pikeman, with a 5* defense, gets attacked by a cavalry unit with a movement rate of 3, how will it defend itself?
With A) 7.5
«+50% versus units with a movement factor of 2» (or is it «of 2 or more?),
or with B) 10
«x2 vs. horse»
Obviously the 2.5 difference can make a big difference.
And another thing, in the same scenario there are also catapults with a movement rate of 2, does the pikeman bonus apply to these catapults as well?
Seriously, there has to be someone among you who already figured these things out


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ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

[The Mad Monk]

Since the attacker has a move of three, there is no bonus for the defender. The match must be exact.

[Seeker]

Remember the thing about hit points and firepower as well (you'll find out about this if you try to make a scenario with anti-tank guns)

[shamrock]

Through playtesting, I have found that the "x2 defense vs horse" is more accurately stated as:

+50% (rounded down) to defense vs units with a movement of exactly 2.

[AkwaticDudeCity]

Yes Shamrock! That is exactly what i needed to know. Thank you very much indeed.

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ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

[Neon Deon]

AK,
The pikeman bonus does not work on any unit that does not have a movement factor of 2.
Just to make sure I tested.
I took a flat map with nothing but grass squares. lined up 30 non vet pikeman vs 30
non vet horseman(movement 2). Attack 2 vs. defense (2*2) 4. Pikeman won 29 out of 30.
Lined em up again. but this time i edited the horse unit so its movement factor was 3.
The pikeman now won only 14 times out of 30.
An almost 50 % ratio. What u would expect for a 2 defense vs a 2 attack on open terrain unfortified. This test was done on diety level MPG.

[inca911]

Thanks Neon Deon! It's great when people load up the game and take the time to prove/disprove the posted ideas! Keep up the good work!

[mindseye]

Wait a second! Any unit with a movement of 2????

Neon Deon, I have a special request for you: please repeat that test, only this time have the Pikemen defend against Howitzers!

[Neon Deon]

Howies????? oh ok but gee howies have 3 hit points and firepower of 2 thats gonna be a slaughter. Yep no chance. did 100 battles the
howies got barely a scratch.

[This message has been edited by Neon Deon (edited April 05, 2000).]

[Black Bart]

LOL. I was just imaging pikeman trying to defend against incoming shells with just their long pikes.

Good info here. It would be nice if there was a horseman flag. The current way works good in the normal game. But if you want a horse unit with a movement of 3 or more in a scenario, pike defense against them won't work.

[Neon Deon]

Black,
Well that makes roads much more valuable. you could always keep em at 2 and raise road bonus to 4 or 5 per movement point.

[mindseye]

Neon -

Heehee, thanks for preforming that lopsided test! I didn't stop to think that, when facing Howitzers, the Pikemen's defense is insignificant, even when doubled!

Like Black Bart I enjoyed picturing the scene of your test: a row of massive WWI-era howitzers, all lined up, cleated steel wheels hub-to-hub. The Pikemen, three miles distant, arrayed in densely packed square formations. The pikes are raised to fighting position. Then, from across the field ... "FIRE!"

---

Okay, here is a more serious question: a veteran player once advised me that the Pikeman's defensive bonus only applied to units that had a movement of two and a hitpoint of one! This, he said, meant that the bonus was not used against Cavalry and Dragoons. Is this what Seeker was referring to (above)? And then there is still OttoK's qeustion of Elephants (2 movement, 1 hitpoint).

This is actually relevant for me because I use an "early armor" unit to which give the Pikeman's bonus. Since this early armor appears with combustion, it is not unlikely that it will go up against dragoons or cavalry (just as happened historically).

Do you feel up to another round of testing?

Thanks again!!
- mindseye
[This message has been edited by mindseye (edited April 05, 2000).]