AI cheats on naval bombardment?

[The Mad Viking]

Mad Monk - yes, my counterattack on the super cruiser was on the same turn.

Seeker - my marine was vet and was fortified using movement points, so the fortification would have been complete before the attack.

But I am very curious as to how the mulitpliers actually work. Here is my theory, and it (not surprisingly) conflicts with what the manual says.

50% bonuses are rounded to the nearest whole number.

A 3 defense becomes a 4. A 4 -> 6, a 5 ->7. Importantly, I believe base on experience and not testing, that a 1 defense becomes a 2 when fortified, etc.

I believe defensive bonuses are ADDITIVE not CUMULATIVE. That is, contrary to the manual, that a rirfleman in a mountain fortress will get a bonus of 12, not 24.

2x bonus for inside a fort, = +4
3x bonus for on mountain = +8
Total is 4 +12 =16.
Not 4x2x3=24.

This based on an AI not-vet artillery taking out two vet alpines in a mountain with yellow health remaining. 10 vs. 16 possible, 10 vs 24 never.

[Neon Deon]

In civ 1 50% bonus was rounded but here no.
A fortified warrior defending against a horse does so at 1.5 not 2. not 1 but 1.5. I tested fortified warriors defendining against horse and the warriors could only manage 16 wins out of 100. The unfortified warriors won 1 out 100. If there was rounding up to a whole number then the fortified warriors should have won about 50% instead of the 16% they actually did. If there was rounding down then the unfortified warriors should have behaved just like the fortified ones but they didnt.

[This message has been edited by Neon Deon (edited April 11, 2000).]

[Seeker]

George: find the archived thread on "super ironclad strategy" to learn how to utilize this to improve your Aggressive Military strategy in deity.

Basically, build lighthouse and run for steam engine instead of democracy. Get Sun Tzu's and Magellan's if possible. Basically, the idea is to build a fleet of about 8 ironclads (maybe in 4 different cities) as EARLY as POSSIBLE without sacrificing vital techs like trade, mono, ect.

If you have these then those frustrating AI walled cities with pikes or musketeers that were stopping your crusaders/dragoons/cannons will fall (on the coasts at least) since a 6 ATT ironclad will beat a 3 piker, or 4.5 musketeer every time, while your 7.5 strength crusader versus 10.5 AI musketeers will need 5:1 superiority to kill them (and you have to kill all of them in one turn or they heal which means wasting 20-30 crusaders when you could send six ironclads and a musketeer to do the job).

If you're new to playing at Deity, there are basically three main ways to play:
Expansionist: build settlers mostly for 2000 years,build happy wonders, get Statue of Liberty and go commie to eliminate corrupt and unhappiness from having lots of cities. Get trade and build wonders. Even if you're a little weak, you can play a bit defensively.
Endgames: either slow military conquest or slow Alpha Centauri.

Perfectionist: stay defensive, build a small number of cities (6-10), go democratic, get Women's Lib and Shakespeares. In this strategy you build up your homeland, make the 'Super Science city', and send caravans everywhere. In this strategy you should be building 3 caravans to 1 anything else. Your main army will be diplomats who get upgraded to spies.
Endgames: can get to alpha centauri very fast if you have massive cities and insane money and science, military victory may be out though, since your offense will be spies.

Aggressive Militarist: Crush all enemies!! In this strategy you need to use Super Ironclads, GW is helpful in the "crusaders can do everything' phase. Get to fundamentalism and espionage. Assuming you have mikes for money, don't forget the power of spies, and that the solution is always more howitzers. Tips: if you're trying to conquer quckly, you can't afford to dilly-dally as much as an expansionist. You need to building soldiers, not marketplaces or granaries. Aslo, some units are inefficient, e.g. destroyer, early cruiser, marine, helicopter, more than a couple marines, more than a couple tanks. The units you will conquer with: Early, elephants and archers. medieval, crusaders. renaissance, ironclad, caravels: there are better things to research than magnetism for a militarist, so just steal it), musketeers, and diplomats. 19th century, RAILROADS!! think of engineers as an offensive unit. build fortresses outside cities and rail artillery. Often, it can be a good idea to give away railroad so that the enemy will link up his cities for you...get machine tools and industrializtion. Modern. AEGIS, transport, 8 howitzers. You'll win every (almost)time.
Endgames: TOTAL WORLD DOMINATION!

[Steve Clark]

...or a hybrid of Perfectionist/Militarist: Build those 6-10 cities including 1 super science city, build defenses to protect them for a long time, build temples, get the science city wonders or improvements, and get Sun and Leo. That way, you will not be behind tech-wise and you will usually have superior military units. Use them to capture/steal techs and wonders. Supplement that with building a million caravans to instantly build the key wonders and many, many diplomats and spies to help conserve those vet units. Later in getting SoL, you can go different ways to win. Not much more is needed.

For me, the best strategy is to use the Perfectionist model to get ahead in techs for the purpose of having superior military units to clobber the enemies.

[George Garrett]

My apologies, Seeker...since my last post on this subject, enemy warships have vindicated you, and embarrassed me by taking out several of my lovely walled cities in turn (they eliminated the pikemen/phalanxes within, left cities - and walls -intact) to the extent that I had to abandon the game as hopeless.

I think my confusion arose from the fact that, up til now, I've been playing at the safe "Chieftain" level, where it was a matter of course for my walled cities to be manned by my beloved musketeers. In Diety, my technology is so outpaced by the AI, that I find that I'm still messing about in small boats (triremes!) while the enemy has battleships, and can put up riflemen against my swords and shields. Why do I play so far
out of my depth?...must be the masochist in me...

[George Garrett]

Much obliged, Seeker, Steve, I appreciate your time and effort, and your advice will be invaluable, I'm sure, both long and short-term.
I seem to be more or less on the track you've both indicated,in my present game-now at 920 A.D. playing on a world map based on Blighty...I've done this before, in Chieftain, and have been impressed with how few initial cities can create a powerhouse of a civ, decades down the road. I've only 6 cities in U.K. and Europe, so far, have them, (mostly) walled, and manned by 3 phalanxes, building caravans like there's no 2000 a.d.,got me Magellan's now I can emigrate to Canada(!), with all its resources, and easy- going Sioux. I always go for Leo, hadn't considered the Academy, but will do so, for this game, certainly. Caravans seem to be key. I am an expansionist by inclination, but will adapt as best I can along the lines indicated by you both
Thanks again, chaps.

[Sieve Too]

quote: In civ 1 50% bonus was rounded but here no. A fortified warrior defending against a horse does so at 1.5 not 2.

Yes. All bonues are multiplied together and no rounding is ever done. Thus a fortified veteran Warrior in a forest defends at (1 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.5) = 3.375. Attacking Horsemen will lose more often than not against these Warriors.

[Sieve Too]

I tested the theory many moons ago. I gave all units 10, i.e. 100, hit points to lessen the chances for random number bias. Horsemen lost everytime.

quote: a non-vet Art beat a vet Alp fortified in a mountain

Artillery has firepower of 2 while the Alpine has fp of 1. Artillery only needs to win 10 rounds while the Alpine must win 20 rounds.

quote: BTW, John Vanbiesbrouck is a sieve too

Indeed! How come it's only ever Canadians that understand my moniker?

[Neon Deon]

Mad,
Non vet arty won 10 times out 100
but that was against vet alpine troops on a
mountain not fortified. (ill run it again later fortified)

[The Mad Viking]

Neon, can have you ever put your research lab to work to confirm the multiplicative bonus claimed by the manual and by Sieve Too? As I posted above, a non-vet Art beat a vet Alp fortified in a mountain, which is 10/36 odds if bonus is multiplied. It would NEVER happen with HP at 2. So either bonus is added, or the Art was another super unit.

BTW, John Vanbiesbrouck is a sieve too.

[The Mad Viking]

Sieve - that darn 2 FP slipped right through my 5-hole. Makes the result possible, as Neon (thanks!) shows- although fortified the alp would probably lose 3/100, thats like rolling snake-eyes.

Because I AM CANADIAN. *beavers in background slapping tails on the water*

Looks like Tom Barrasso is a sieve too!

[SilverDragon]

One thing I like to do is to get a battleship and keep bombarding an AI city. The AI never leaves a city undefended, so it keeps buying a new unit every time. This is extremely bad for the AI's economy. But, this only works before Rocketry. (I think we all know why.)


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Long live the Communists!
-- SilverDragon
[This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited April 25, 2000).]