help me (balancing my science and tax rate)

[tobyr]

SparrowHawk,

You have many choices if you do not want to build any of the available units. I doubt this is even a complete list...

(1) Build a caravan anyway (if you can) unless you are convinced it will die the moment it tries to leave the city. (You could disband it later to help build something else...)

(2) Build whatever would take the longest to build, hoping you will never complete it (even if that is a wonder already being built); you can change later when something good comes a long.

(3) Rearrange your citizens to MINIMIZE production in that city, perhaps they can make more cits and trade for awhile untii there is something useful to build.

(4) Sell something you've already built (maybe barracks) and build it again!

(5) In times of peace and quiet: build another of the cheapest unit that is stationed in the city. When that unit is partly built, disband the unit to help build its replacement.

BUT: This situation should not arise very often. If it does, your normal strategies are getting you into trouble, hope you can figure out what to change.

NOTE: Before someone complains that you can ALWAYS build a caravan, try playing the ToT fantasy game, where many cities are never ever able to build any caravans...

- toby


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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

[Xin Yu]

If you are playing SP:

Before Monarchy: 60% science, 40$ tax. Research goal: Monarchy.
Monarchy to Invention: 0% science, 70% tax, 30% Luxury. Build marketplace/bank to make your cities celebrate WLTKD. Get advances from goody huts and through diplomacy.
Invention to Railroad: Max science, change all citizens to scientists if possible (even with food deficit). Research goal: Railroad.
Railroad to Democracy: same setting as above. Build Darwin's Voyage to get two advances.
After Railroad and democracy: 0% science, 80% tax, 20% luxury. More luxury when you can celebrate WLTKD. Use caravans to get one tech advance per turn (you need one scientist or your research will halt). Build marketplace/bank/stock exchange.

Only build library/university/research lab in one city (SSC) with Collosus/Copenius/Newton.

[Caesar the Great]

Xin, the only problem that I've had doing something similar to that is if you're playing on a large map and someone manages to get invention quickly... you can't get techs out of goody huts, and you would have come in contact with only 2 or 3 civs. I like to do something similar to that, except rely on GL. Its certainly not the best strategy b/c you'll always be in 3rd or worst with science. But it really helps if you're going on a diplomat war... (what other kind is there )

[Steve Clark]

A simplistic reply to Sparrow: Build caravans and when you are done building enough of them, build some more. You should get to the point fairly quickly (after Trade) that all wonders are built with caravans, and only a few key improvements as Xin Yu mentioned.

[Xin Yu]

Caesar the Great: In MPE you can still get advance from goody huts before YOU discover invention. With 70% tax you can buy caravans to build the embassy. And you can bribe cities from AIs to get more techs. And when you set science to 0%, AI will do it too, so nobody's gonna get invention fast (AI will most likely stop opening goody huts after a while).

Think about two players using different science rates: Player A set science 70% and tax 30%, Player B set science 0%, tax 70% and luxury 30%. Player A will get several techs, Player B will get 3 times the money as Player A (the 30% luxury will give more trade due to celebrating, hence Player B in effect has 100% tax). Player B then uses the money to bribe cities from Player A and gets both territory and techs.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited March 06, 2000).]

[War4ever]

Xin is this the strategy you plan to use in MP ??????? i am curious as to what levels you set science lux and tax at in MP is it the same or does it fluctuate each turn ?

[Sten Sture]

be afraid, be very afraid

[Civ-wrecked]

Xin,
As usual, you have the most radical ideas which works better than the norm . I notice that all Civ-related games have some
sort of "equalizer" factor and will penalize you if you're too far ahead, or help you along to catch up if you're far behind.
Since you're turning off the science rate probably you will simply get a better chance of getting advances from huts and are given new techs from other civs as well (or the AI penalize the other Civs instead). Of course, bribery will get you to Invention in a few turns after someone gets it .
What's unfair is that the equalization formula doesn't take into account your other
infrastructure factors, like number of bases, big populations, and oodles of cash on hand. By the time you turn your science rate back on the other Civs will be probably be left in
the dust.
Anyway, I have to check this out. Just got back to CivII after a year on SMACs (and a week or two on CTP). How fast you do get to Future Tech using this strategy ?

[Scouse Gits]

Xin - Fearsome analysis as usual - just one question.
In the Democracy phase how many cities building how many caravans to get one advance per turn with science at 0% only one scientist and only one city (SSC) with the science improvements?

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[Adam Smith]

Doesnt the strategy depend on the situation? For example, if you are playing "no birbe cities" in MGE, then bribing to get technology wont work. If you are playing against the AI on a large board, same problem, since they can be hard to reach. Playing against the AI on a large or medium board I prefer to max out science, build the SSC, and use caravans to keep the treasury filled. When I start pulling away in science (usually about the time of invention) I will often trade science for money in order to keep building up my infrastructure and minimize the program-imposed science handicap.

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"I fear that I shall die a Prince."
-Edward VII, Prince of Wales


[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited March 07, 2000).]

[Xin Yu]

SSC gives 288 science (16 scientists, library, university, newton, copenius) and you may need a food caravan every now and then to keep the city from starving.

The number of caravans needed depends on your city size. You may need as many as 20 caravans trading on two continents at first. They are worthless . But once you can build freights and superhighways you need only 3-4 freights. The good news is, they are only 10 turns away from democracy .

The logic of putting science to 0% on democracy is that we can use the extra money to buy caravans. Ironically by doing this we put MORE resources to science: not only the trade icons, but also the shield productions are used towards the next advance. One exception is that if, after buying caravans in all cities in one turn, we still have more money left, then we should raise the science rate and cut the tax. Another factor is that we only build marketplace/bank in cities so for one science bulb sacreficed we get two tax coins. We don't build library/university since they are only useful for a short period of time (after invention and before superhighways).

[inca911]

I think it is brilliant the way Xin establishes balanced tax/luxury/science for his game by setting the tax/luxury/science rates extremely unbalanced!! I've been using caravans to obtain science advances/gold, but Xin's method goes one BIG step further! I'll be trying that method in my next game, just as soon as I kill all these pesky Babylons. Thanks Xin!!!!

[Xin Yu]

In MP games trade is the key. I'll switch to 0% science after trade instead of monarchy.

The setting of 0% science, 70% tax, 30% luxury, and only build marketplace/banks has two benefits.

First, marketplace/banks increases both tax and luxury, so you get 100% benefit from your tax rate settings (tax+luxury=100%). Library/university can only increase science so you may never get the full advantage of it.

Second, high luxury rate takes care of the happiness problem, and your cities can celebrate WLTKD which in turn increases your tax revenue.

The drawback of this setting is that science advance is gone. But you can build caravans! Caravans can be recycled (trade, use the bonus to buy another caravan, trade again) and they build trade routes! Who needs science if there's another way to get an advance?

[Adam Smith]

Xin:
288 for an SSC?? A good-sized SSC should give you 800-1000 prior to superhighways, 1200-1500 after superhighways and research lab. Perhaps you forgot to count the value of three trade routes in the SSC or the fact that scientists give you more lightbulbs than it says in the manual.

I agree with your logic that 0% science lets you devote more resources to science, but a good trade strategy lets you get into the exception you cite. Figure 1200 science from SSC, plus four freight units per turn at about 700 science (and coins) each, for a total of 4000 science per turn, enough to get you one discovery per turn no matter what. Even with 0% taxes, you get 2800 coins per turn from trade, which is enough to rush-buy the four trade caravans you need every turn and still put 2000 per turn into the treasury. Rush-buying caravans is self-sustaining. Its like printing your own money.

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"I fear that I shall die a Prince."
-Edward VII, Prince of Wales


[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited March 07, 2000).]

[Sten Sture]

time out on this post...


okay, after thinking about it I see the 288 or there abouts... 16*3+48trade*1.5^4

Xin is that what you are thinking too?

edit, no I guess not, trade routes wouldn't count, so the 16 scientists at 3 beakers each get raised by 150%^4. Or do they get more than 3?

[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited March 07, 2000).]