How to get more alliances and gold

[solo]

War4ever,

A question. Was this your only alliance? If so, then it still fits the parameters, since one is possible while Supreme. It is always easy to get one when Supreme, but I have never managed any more beyond that first one. Have you or anyone else started ANOTHER alliance while rated Supreme?


EOL,

I like your results and research about how reputation affects alliances, and will incorporate this info into the final product. My impression is that the worse your reputation is, the more you have to concede to get an alliance, and when secured they yield fewer gifts than when you've been more honorable. They demand more, and give less, so it pays to be Spotless.

A side issue is that I've generally found that if an ally is being eliminated by another AI, a lot of gold can be had by ignoring
their appeals for help (except for maybe a few tech gifts) and just asking for gifts. They will give you all their gold in desperation.

It seems that many things other than relative power ratings may trigger gifts and their size, so I will plan to research this a lot more after getting back from vacation.


Blaupanzer,

Very interesting points, yet my latest game results were based on the premise that it is one's power rating alone, that determines the number of alliances you can make. I was able to ally very quickly with the aggressive and militaristic AI, although they needed a 1 turn intervening war to vent their frustrations. Others with a greater propensity, did ally without any efforts on my part other than just asking. If the power rating theory holds up, the propensity and worth of alliances by different civs would be a good thing to add to this GL topic. Many thanks for your examples and input.

Funny and weird things happen, like your example where you allied with both sides in an AI war! This is interesting and amusing stuff, and reminds me of when I had an ally demand some of my gold. I forked it over, and then on the same turn asked for a gift and got it right back! Only with the AI!


SG,

I think the reason you did not get any gold was because you were rated Supreme, higher than the purple civ. Gifts of gold will come only if you are rated lower in power, or if it is a special situation. See below.


All,

I did quite a few more tests on the availability of gifts. The rule that your power rating has to be lower than that of the AI at the time a gift is requested is definitely a gold trigger (never gold if you are rated higher, and always gold if you are rated lower), but there may be a few exceptions to this general rule, as I found that in one game where I was rated Supreme I was able to get a gift of gold from an ally (according to the rule of relative power ratings, this should not happen), BUT this may have been triggered because my ally first demanded a tech, which I supplied.
By the way, it was the only gift of gold I got from that game long ally.

solo

[EOL]

Originally posted by solo
Have you or anyone else started ANOTHER alliance while rated Supreme?

Not that I can remember, I am almost always supreme & spotless until at least the mid-game, its always 'No we shall not become the slaves of the decadent ... empire.' Given you can only make one - it's probably best to be choosy about who its with. If they're isolated you won't get constant calls for joining wars, they won't give it away when you give it to them and you'll be their main expense.

Point 5 about size of gifts seems to work both ways, I just got 425g from some pathetic Aztecs. I don't know if the relative sizes of your bank accounts makes any difference - may do if you've similar power.

A side issue is that I've generally found that if an ally is being eliminated by another AI, a lot of gold can be had by ignoring
their appeals for help (except for maybe a few tech gifts) and just asking for gifts. They will give you all their gold in desperation.

I usually give them a military tech or two to help them survive and keep the gifts flowing a bit longer. Once they're eliminated you will probably be able to ally with the civ that killed them and get their cash too.

It seems that many things other than relative power ratings may trigger gifts and their size, so I will plan to research this a lot more after getting back from vacation.

indeed

Funny and weird things happen, like your example where you allied with both sides in an AI war! This is interesting and amusing stuff, and reminds me of when I had an ally demand some of my gold. I forked it over, and then on the same turn asked for a gift and got it right back! Only with the AI!

Even better when you tell them where to stick it and then ask them for a gift in the same conversation. Usually you get more than they had asked for. Happens a lot when they are at war with another of your allies and you've given them all your techs (otherwise they ask for tech).

I did quite a few more tests on the availability of gifts. The rule that your power rating has to be lower than that of the AI at the time a gift is requested is definitely a gold trigger (never gold if you are rated higher, and always gold if you are rated lower), but there may be a few exceptions to this general rule, as I found that in one game where I was rated Supreme I was able to get a gift of gold from an ally (according to the rule of relative power ratings, this should not happen), BUT this may have been triggered because my ally first demanded a tech, which I supplied.
By the way, it was the only gift of gold I got from that game long ally.

solo

The 425g (nearly half their treasury) above was from a civ much lower on the powergraph but the same chat as I got the alliance. I think generally you are correct about needing to give them a tech though. Usually you get a big gift though since you haven't been hitting them for much. If they end the chat after your gift you can often pick up the gold next turn.

Sometimes towards the end of games your allies will try and sell techs to you when you ask for gifts. I think this happens when you're well behind in power but have plenty of cash and have no tech it wants. In OCC I've had the AI try to get me to buy Polytheism after gifting it all my techs!!

About the reputation thing. Each AI civ seems to remember your taunting and general rudeness such that even if they are worshipful and your reputation is spotless they'll reject your call for an alliance (and later in the game, peace).

On a side note:

You only seem to be offered gold for cease-fires/peace treaties if you are spotless too (perhaps excellent is enough), no point paying you if they know you're going to sneak attack again anway I guess. Generally need to be much more powerful than them and have rejected their first approach to get the offer, taking a couple cities helps too.

[freshman]

This is an awesome thread. I am in the middle of my VERY FIRST OCC game, and playing around with alliances, and I came up with a few questions since alliances and gifts are just an important part of the game. BTW OCC is FUN!!! I actually wrote up these questions before I read this thread, so bear with me if there is a question which seems to have been answered - I'm just pasting in my questions here:

-I fell for this twice. I wanted the Viking to be my ally. They asked for 300 gold. So I declined, spent my money, then asked again. This time they asked for only 100 gold. I figured I could easily get back my money once they were my ally, so I forked it over. Then they asked me to declare war against another ally of mine too. I declined. They took my money - and didn't ally. That sucks! Is there a way to tell before handing them money that they plan on asking you to declare war against someone you don't want to?

Other assorted questions:
The Mongols decided I was sniveling and groveling too much and canceled their alliance. How do I avoid this? How often can I ask - what is their breaking point? Does attitude/reputation matter?
Does having very little gold help in getting your allies to fork over their cash. How much cash should they have before you ask them? How do you avoid them giving you an unwanted tech? How important in OCC is setting up an Embasy with other players so that you can more easily direct their tech paths and thus your own research; and seeing when they have enough gold? If so, isn't Marco Polo's a good buy vs. 6 diplomats + 1 ship (220 shields vs 200 for Marco Polo - Communism sucks though)

I had another question about luxuries not giving me more than 10 happy people in my 21 size city even though I had plenty + Shakespear's theater - but that is off the subject of this thread.

[solo]

EOL,

Again some good stuff. That 425 gift from the Pathetic AI convinces me that there are other triggers for gifts, since your power rating could not have been any lower at that time. Could be there are special factors in effect during the initial alliance chat. I would be interested to know what your power rating was at that time of that 425 gift from the Pathetic AI.

I went back and tried for gifts at the time of achieving each alliance in the game I got 6, and only got gold once, but could not tell why it happened then and did not happen under similar circumstances with other allies.

I have never had an ally try to sell me a tech later in the game. Perhaps they know to well what my answer to that would be!


freshman,

I will respond to questions that are not addressed elsewhere in this thread.

Generally when an AI asks for gold to start an alliance I refuse, because the results are almost always similar to what you experienced. My guess is that the Vikings were on a different continent and were fairly powerful. Anyways, my policy is to only give a tech to start an alliance, if a tech is asked for. If they ask for anything else (gold or a declaration of war), stand clear. A better situation is when they offer you gold to join them against another AI. This is a judgement call, as you are sure to end up with a war against the third AI, who may be in position to really harass your city. However, if the offended AI is far away, and you really need the gold, acceptance can lead to a profitable alliance.

"Snivel and grovel" can be for any of the reasons you normally wouldn't receive gold, i.e. they have less than 50g, or their power rating is now lower than yours, or their attitude towards you is too low. A cancelled alliance can hurt, but sometimes you can get it back as quickly as it was lost with tech gifts. However, the best policy, once you have an alliance, is to make sure you keep them Enthusiastic with tech gifts, an easy thing to do. Then it is more likely that your ill-timed request will just be denied with an apology.

I am fairly sure that the amount of gold you have makes no difference on their willingness to give. However, keep in mind that the more gold you have, the higher your power rating will go, maybe high enough to render you ineligible for gifts. It is also wise whenever approaching the AI not to have much gold on hand and to purchase things you want beforehand, for they are just as likely to ask you for some gold, especially later in the game. A refusal will usually cancel the alliance.

As for Marco Polo's vs. embassies using diplomats, it would depend on the game situation. The difference in cost is negligible. Communism comes late enough in the game, that by the time MP expires, it has done its job. It is pretty easy to delay Communism, too, by delaying Industrialization as a tech gift, just as Combustion is held back to delay a premature AI discovery of Flight (which cancels the Colossus). In each game I will pick what I think is the quickest way to get embassies with all the AI. Also consider that most OCC players get excellent results without using embassies at all, using their resources to build up their science or city faster. I am the biggest (maybe only) proponent of their use.

Hope this helps, and enjoy your game. After it is over, I would like to know what worked for you and what didn't, i.e. whether your results confirm or reject the ideas postulated in this thread.
Thanks.

solo

[debeest]

Freshman, regarding your off-topic aside about luxuries:

Any luxuries beyond two per citizen in a given city have no effect. (This is not noted anywhere in the manual or Civilopedia; I learned it here, after spending many frustrating hours on this same question.) Therefore, if your citizens are all starting out content, you can make them all happy. But if all of them are starting out angry, requiring four luxuries apiece to become happy, then you run into a problem when you try to celebrate. In a city with an even number of citizens you can make exactly half of them happy, and if you can control unhappiness then you can celebrate. But consider a city with an odd number of citizens (21, e.g.): only 42 luxuries count, so you can only move 10 citizens to happy and an 11th citizen to content, and you can't celebrate. You need another way to make citizens happy rather than just content. These ways include Hanging Gardens, Cure for Cancer, a courthouse under democracy, or my own favorite method, which is to build more cities until I get outraged citizens. For reasons unknown, outraged citizens turn happy at a cost of just two luxuries. Also not mentioned in the manual or elsewhere.

You know, I just realized, I'll bet this is all described in the Great Library. Oh well.

[Paul]

To add to debeest's post, a palace has the same happiness effect under democracy as a courthouse. So you need to have a democratic government or HG or CfC to celebrate your city larger than 21.

[EOL]

Originally posted by solo
Again some good stuff. That 425 gift from the Pathetic AI convinces me that there are other triggers for gifts, since your power rating could not have been any lower at that time. Could be there are special factors in effect during the initial alliance chat. I would be interested to know what your power rating was at that time of that 425 gift from the Pathetic AI.

Supreme by a long way - it may also have helped that I controlled almost all of the land surrounding them => they couldn't expand. They also had a v. small border with the Persians who'd they had been fighting on and off for 4000 years. I always find the Egyptians/Aztecs to be great allies if you only have one:

• they don't get to fussed if you don't join them in a war
• they have big cities to trade with (alliance => they won't sneak attack your caravans)
• they are keen to get into rep/demo => more trade
• all the trade swells their coffers which in turn builds mine
• they seem to value and research the same techs that I do
• they usually stay on good terms right to the end of the game

I went back and tried for gifts at the time of achieving each alliance in the game I got 6, and only got gold once, but could not tell why it happened then and did not happen under similar circumstances with other allies.

If they have a tech that you don't at the time of signing an alliance they almost invariably will give you that tech as the gift that turn (especially if they offered to trade it, but were turned down - damn thought I'd avoided WC). If you need the gold then it's probably best to get the alliance, trade all techs (at least the one they had originally offered), and then sting them. On subsequent occasions you can get gold in preference to tech as gifts. This presumably depends on how much cash they have and attitude.

Generally when an AI asks for gold to start an alliance I refuse, because the results are almost always similar to what you experienced. My guess is that the Vikings were on a different continent and were fairly powerful. Anyways, my policy is to only give a tech to start an alliance, if a tech is asked for. If they ask for anything else (gold or a declaration of war), stand clear. A better situation is when they offer you gold to join them against another AI. This is a judgement call, as you are sure to end up with a war against the third AI, who may be in position to really harass your city. However, if the offended AI is far away, and you really need the gold, acceptance can lead to a profitable alliance.

If they are at war with someone that you have a cease-fire/treaty
of some kind with they will always ask you to declare war (somewhere that an embassy might help). Occasionally near the beginning they will ally anyway without you declaring war - don't bet on it though. You may find civilized civs you can ally with late in the game but everyone else will usually be at war by then. Drain the coffers before chatting if possible. Putting your money into caravans will mean that you get it back soon with interest.

It is also wise whenever approaching the AI not to have much gold on hand and to purchase things you want beforehand, for they are just as likely to ask you for some gold, especially later in the game. A refusal will usually cancel the alliance.

Sound advice, although I can never remember having an alliance cancelled for not giving cash (before space-flight) - happens all the time for tech if their attitude slips to below receptive. After space-flight any refusal of anything will see an end to the alliance (regardless of attitude) and a horde of diplomats coming for your tech - they often roll a few up to your door before asking for a tech. Also after space flight if you don't have any tech that they want (cash doesn't seem to matter much) they will end the alliance. This means that if their attitude slips they will come to you for a tech every turn until you have none, cancel the alliance, and probably sneak attack a couple turns later. they still seem to give gifts right up to point where they have taken your last tech though - so if you need extra cash for that spaceship you can expect one less gift than you have techs over them.

[solo]

After some more experimentation I surprised myself by being able to get a 6th alliance while rated Indequate, the AI being rated Strong at that time, so the table at the start of this thread is not accurate, with the possible exception being the limit of 1 alliance when you are rated Supreme. So in place of that table, it would be more accurate to say that alliances are much more likely the lower your power rating goes.

More tests seem to confirm the idea that having a lower power rating than the AI is what triggers their willingness to give. Having a higher one stops the flow of gifts. This worked EVERY time in the game where I had 6 alliances and where no wars were going on, and during which I was careful to keep all the AI Enthusiastic with tech gifts. Indeed, there are exceptions, as EOL as pointed out, and it could be that gift triggers vary in games with fewer alliances and/or more conflict. The testing will continue in future games to see how well this idea holds up.

As for acquiring alliances, look for opportunities to form them when the AI keeps asking for a specific tech, or asks for a tech that you have just acquired. Deny their trade and tech requests until they accept your offer of an alliance for the tech they want. (The exception being if a previous denial has led to a war. Then fulfill their tech request to end the war and ask for a peace treaty. Then ask for an alliance in the same chat.)


EOL,

More good stuff. Thanks for including it. Very good detail and many examples to illustrate your points. Maybe we could collaborate on the final product for the GL when I return from vacation.

[freshman]

Hey - I just thought of something. Nobody seems to think that the number of military units you have matters. I have only 2 military units, but my power is Mighty, and even though I give out really nice techs like Trade and Republic, nobody will Ally with me because I'm too weak, pathetic, and have nothing to offer. The Mongols claim that they have sufficient military might to defend themselves without my help. The times I've had more success with creating allies is when I unconsciously had at least 4 military units. This is something that could be easily tested (upon an encounter try it with X military units, then reload and disband 1 at a time to see if the encounter changes.) I guess you'd have to use the cheat menu to determine if the civ's # units in comparison to your own matter too.

[freshman]

OK - so I just tried creating a few more units with no changes in the other civ's willingness to ally. Perhaps if I have a military unit standing next to their city they'll be more open minded!

[freshman]

I just finished a very frustrating game - frustrating in that I really could have used more allies 'cause I was strapped for cash, but they just refused. I was Strong and Mighty, which indicates that I should be able to pick up 2 or 3 alliances. Well, I only picked up 1 - and he was always weaker on the PG than I was, and so I got a total of 50 g from him. The reason they gave for not allying with me was either "too weak and have nothing to offer" or "we can defend our own borders with our own military, thank you very much". Too weak? No, Strong/Mighty. Nothing to offer? How 'bout the entire tech-tree. I was PO'd.
I played the very same map 2 other times and didn't have nearly the trouble I had this time. I played around with building up a military, placing them at their doorstep, and even building MPE... No effect. I would give them good tech...I would withhold tech in hopes that they'd request it to be allied...No effect. What am I doing wrong?! I asked 3 other civs about 6 times each during the game all to no avail. 2 were on the same continent.

One more thing...I was Spotless.

[EOL]

Maybe they didn't like your ally. I get the impression it matters even if they are at peace if they're not on good terms. You can also annoy them greatly without taking a reputation hit. It's frustrating when they ask you for tech (which you refuse) and then they say you have nothing to offer.

[freshman]

So in my experience, if they don't like your ally, they complain about it, and ask that you end peace with them/declare war. They didn't do that. They readily accepted my tech, as you say, and then said I had nothing to offer. This happened with every advance I gave them; it really pissed me off, especially after I had like given them 30 techs throughout the game! Without me, they'd be in the friken stone age.

[EOL]

Originally posted by freshman
So in my experience, if they don't like your ally, they complain about it, and ask that you end peace with them/declare war.

Very rarely have I been asked this if they are not actually at war with them at the time. Ie. If they've just signed a peace treaty or cease-fire with your ally but still despise them they will not be cooperative with you but also won't ask you to declare war.

[freshman]

You may be right, but they were just as uncooperative before I allied with the Americans and quoted the same line, about 4 times, about me having nothing to offer. So I really think there some flag or trigger I don't know about that didn't get set.

Other thoughts: I know different civs value techs differently. Could a really good tech to one civ act as a trigger to one, but not to another. There is actually a numeric value each civ associates with a tech; what is the minimum value that triggers a civ to ally with you for it?