guerilla warfare.

[Carolus Rex]

Well, since I've never had an opinion of my own (here or elsewhere):

Try the Super Ironclad, it's lethal!

Carolus

[Traianvs]

As far as the military is concerned - the civ that rules the waves, rules the world.

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no way!!!!!!i usually haven't got a ship unless i need a transport(and i only need a few or so to attack the coastal cities and then the Ai is already beaten(without the navy they're nothing)...even when they have a strong navy, i'm way ahead on techs and have coastal fortresses, so the only occasion i fear the AI is right at the start of the game and when they discover the ALMIGHTY howitzer!!!


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ThermiteB(that's me!) RLZ like HELL!!!!!!!!!!

[Scouse Gits]

Trajanus:

We all have our favourite ways of beating the AI. I use things that float.

You mention the "almighty howitzer". It can shoot twice and ignores city walls. An ironclad ignores walls and can kill several defenders in one turn - and you don't have to wait for robotics either!

Much will depend on the game/map/objectives, but if you exploit a navy you will never fear a howitzer again. You will have crushed the other civs before they even dream of robotics.

Think of an ironclad as a "howie" that floats. Head for Steam Engine!!!

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Scouse Git (2)

[Aurelius]

Hey SG,

Howitzers ignore city walls .... and coastal fortress and unit defense. I've rarely seen any unit survive one attack from a vet howie....on the other hand, can't remember how many times I've seen the Super Iron Clad sink to a fortified musketeer behind coastal fortesses.

Still, I read your earlier post and noted the trade aspect of lighthouse...Ming's vet triremes sound pretty invincible. Still....guess I'm going to find out soon.

Smash, in single player, unless I'm on an island or strange peninsula, I don't like having a navy. The AI seems to operate well in the sea and relies on numbers--lots of ships...lots of cruise missles later. But on land, the AI is so bad militarily.... So I tend to ignore the sea in single player.

But in multiplayer, I'm weighing the advantages and disadvantages--quick trade and guerilla warfare?! (hit and run )

AU

[Sten Sture]

Sivro - there is a thread titled "A List of Data" from Caesar the Great from a while back that contains some discussion of the science cost of additional advances that may help talk you out of the GL. The reason I avoid it is that it ends up slowing me down to Mikes/JSB by not letting me streamline my research path.

Welcome!

[Scouse Gits]

AU

The AI is just as bad on water as it is on land. It never tries to escort troop ships from attack by stacking an ironclad with a galleon etc.

Sure - if you come across a coastal fortress, the game is over in that city, until your spies can destroy the defence.

If you are playing a warlike naval game spies are vital. They can find out about the fortress (free) before you waste a ship. It is interesting to note that if you give a spy "her primary target", and pick city walls, you get a special message about how risky sabotage is in a capital and against walls. There is no such warning if you ask the spy to destroy the coastal defence. The fortress is easier to sabotage than walls as she is not caught so often before her finishing her task.

I think the overall message I'm trying to convey is this:

Sea power will allow early exploration, with efficient and safe trading on different continents. Whatever game you're in - you must trade. A strong navy (early on) will mean the AI will never be allowed to sit back and research howies and missiles.

In one really funny game there was a perfectionist civ in demo. This was a bit disappointing for my caravel stuffed with three diplos, as bribing was impossible! Next turn, the barbs appeared on their patch, so the ironclads blasted away the defenders, and the barbs took the city. I bribed it the turn after. I then owned the Pyramids.

Try messing about in boats!

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Scouse Git (2)

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited February 01, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited February 01, 2000).]

[Aurelius]

SG(2),

Don't know how many there are of you, but I'll assume your wearing your printer's hat.

It's hard to break old habits. I've been playing diety Civ for nearly a year and I only learned of the super city back in December. I've finally tried using a super science city in an ICS game. Seems like a much harder game with more than one city to deal with. Keeping luxuries on zero while letting the one city work is not so easy! I'd read somewhere that the subordinate cities don't build aqueducts....

So now I'll have to try that Super Iron Clad strategy a few times. By the way, I use to do great without trade ! Ignorance was bliss...

But I'm afraid I'm sold on trade now. And last night I was devastated in my ICS game when the AI chose to slay my two camels rather than defend their last city. I still only have one trade route in the super city!

BTW, I tried that barb trick you mentioned in one of my three attempts at the OCC 4 whale comparison game. The Barbs refused to take the city! I was dumbfounded! Of course, I wasn't planning to bribe it cheaply. My Battleship ( ) just wanted to wreak havoc on the Zulu.

So far, I keep the trireme's moored in SF.

[Sten Sture]

Live Photo of Aurelius' Trireme docked off of Alcatraz...
http://www.sfgate.com/liveviews/skydeck.shtml

Note coastal fortress!

[Scouse Gits]

Sten - you have a wicked sense of humour!
Thought you might have gone to New Hampshire to give them some laughs. It's exciting over there at the moment. All the favourites seem under pressure - but my vote would go to the guy who tossed the pancake!

AU

Like you, I never realised the power of trade until reading these threads. I think the enduring attraction of CIV 2 is the variety of stratagies that it is possible to use in various circumstances. Every game is different.

p.s. SG (1) is the guy who knows about computers. I am the printer. There are only two of us! Do we seem like more?

Good luck with those ironclads.

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Scouse Git (2)

[Aurelius]

SG(2),

I take it you can't swim off the shore of Liverpool these days...the weather in SF was so good Today that I can imagine the tourist swimming to Alcatraz.

AU

[Sten Sture]

Good thinking SG(2)! I bet the city was a whole lot cheaper too!

[Steve Clark]

Getting on this pretty late, so it's probably all moot...

In my experiences, the AI is stupider on the waves than on land, even at the hardest levels. I've had AI vet ironclads attack my coastal cities with riflemen behind city walls - with no success. Personally, I don't bother with navies except for transports and a few battleships just for the fun of it. The key against the AI is a pre-emptive offense with a good defense that you can leave alone.

[Sivro]

Steve Clark -

I agree with you. I am in the middle of a diety SP game where I tried the Lighthouse/trireme strategy. I didn't really have a lot of success with it. Don't get me wrong, I will win the game as I usually do (I have STWA pumping out vet cavalry and fanatics while the rest of the world just discovered musketeers). While I do have the upper hand in this game, I don't think it is because I built the Lighthouse. The problem with the Lighthouse on diety level is that you must spend tons of time early in the game just trying to keep your people content. By the time you have temples/Mike's Chapel/JSB, someone is close to discovering Magnetism. I think the Lighthouse strategy would work well on lower levels, but on diety it is simply too difficult to fully take advantage of it. Thus, I will stick with my original assertion that building the Great Library early is usually the way to go. It works great no matter what the situation. If you are behind on technology, the Library sets things straight. If you are ahead on tech, the Library keeps it that way. I believe this even though it might slow down your research and hamper a deliberate path to wanted techs. No one can convice me that building the Library is "bad for science".

[Aurelius]

Steve,

While it's true that AI doesn't use navies too well, the numbers strategy works better at sea than on land. Speaking of Units and not cities, there are no fortresses at sea or roads/railroads to affect movement(thus strategy and tactic)...so I find my sea units to be more vulnerable to the randomness that benefits the numbers strategy. (I've had a lot of ships sunk at sea due to the appearance of AI ships from nowhere!)

The one thing that makes sense in using the lighthouse with triremes is filling it with dips and caravans. Also, Leonardo's might compliment the strategy from a military perspective as ships take so long to build.

Still, unless there are many continents and islands, landpower seems most important and the variation of terrain seems like an ideal situation for the human player.

AU

(Oh, I always thought Liverpool was a coastal city, but someone at a bar told me it was land locked--I could consult a net map but I figure someone at Apolyton would know.... )

[Steve Clark]

Sivro:
Good to have your comments and experiences. You and I play alike (even though I may be too much a conquest fanatic). We discussed awhile back about the GLib and like everything in Civ, there are numerous opinions. But like you, I now do the GLib for exactly those reasons you mentioned. My typical goal is to race up the tech tree to Rocketry and then let loose against the remaining civs. Glib and STWA helps in that respect. I'm not surprised that the trireme/LH strategy didn't work because two of the most critical goals in the early game are:
1) Get the happiness wonders ASAP. If your opponents are researching Magnetism while you are building JSB, you are behind. BUILD CARAVANS EARLY AND OFTEN to build Wonders. In my last two long games, I built all of the Wonders (from Colossus, GWall on down) with caravans, some within one turn.
2) Get the science city crankin' by pumping caravans to it and also, get the three trade routes from it established.

Aurelius:
Point taken. Much to my dismay though, I have found that Leo does nearly diddly-squat with naval vessels. Upgrading triremes to caravels to frigates(?). Oooooh. I don't think it upgrades destroyers to battleships or other modern vessels. I may be wrong about this, just trying to remember one game where I expected an upgrade and didn't get it before Leo expired.