The quantum leap from Prince to King

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 10-18-2000 03:13 AM Man, I love this site.

This is the hottest site, isn't it?

quote: 1) Caravans, caravans, caravans...instead of what? I'm still having trouble "banging them out," because my cities always seem to need something. Maybe I should ask it this way: after you build a temple, how long do you wait to build another city improvement?

There seem to be two different camps concerning caravans. One side builds them and sends them out for money/science bonuses. The other side uses them to rush build wonders. I'm in the second camp. After building a temple, if I'm building a wonder or anticipate one in the near future, I'll target my largest shield producing cities (maybe two or three of them) to start on caravans or the wonder. The others I'll let work on the next logical city improvement. That would be either marketplace/library/city walls.

quote: 2) Related question: how long do you stay in monarchy? In a Prince game, I tend to research with these goals: Monarchy-Literacy-Trade-Republic-Invention-Democracy, switching governments as soon as I can. But when I go to Republic now, it doesn't seem to do any good; the advantages in terms of science and money are offset by the need to divert arrows to luxuries and rush-build happiness improvements. Democracy seems to present the same problems.

If I get the research advances soon enough, I'll put off switching to Republic until I've either got a coloseum built or about to be built in each city or a "happy" wonder, i.e., HG, MC, BC, built.

quote: 3) Do you all really do without city walls? I can't seem to part with them, especially since it takes forever to get a defensive unit that can hold its own against an elephant; besides, they're as cheap as all but the cheapest units, and they require no support. It seems at the very least that a capital and a science city should have them, no? And, yes, I know a horseman can win against an elephant on the attack, but thanks to my road infrastructure the elephant can often get to my city before I can get to him. What to do?

There once was a thread that had a piece of advice in it that went like this... "city walls, city walls, city walls". I build city walls. And I smile all the way to the top parapet (sic?) because their maintenance cost is $0. If my income is down, city walls are a good investment while waiting for your economy to grow.

quote: 4) I don't mind giving techs away to make friends, but do you all really give away money at the beginning? I keep making contact early with civs that want everything I have, and I'm both too proud and too nervous about low cash flow to say yes. Then, of course, the wars start.

I think this is a version related issue. I play MGE, therefore, I have to give the AI anything it wants. Bummer, huh?

quote: 5) In this most recent game, after ending up in war after war because I refused demands for monetary tribute, I finally got the opportunity to sack an enemy city. Suddenly, everyone seemed to "grow weary of this endless fighting" -- even civs whose cities I hadn't touched. Coincidence, or strategy?

I haven't noticed this.


------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Ming]

Since I play Deity, the only real city improvement I build early is a temple. And I try to wait as long as possible to build even those. I might build an early library if I have a science city that would make it pay off. And I only build walls early in cities that might actually need them (borders with an aggressive neighbor) Otherwise, I just crank out settlers and then caravans.

After I get trade, it's time to start cranking out those caravans. While kcbob states there are two camps, I don't fall in either. My production oriented cities crank out caravans that I can use for building wonders. Usually, they have very low trade, and wouldn't generate much unless I can get them all the way around the world to some juicy city.
I use the caravans from high trade cities to set up the early trade routes.

It is rare when I give ANYTHING to a AI civ. Let them attack. But I will admit, if they catch me on surprise and not in a good position to defend my self, I "might" give them something to keep them off my back until I can do something about it... but that is rare!

As to your last point, I think it's part of the program that taking a city creates an event to change their attitude.

[DaveV]

A good piece of advice I read a long time ago is not to build city improvements until you need them and can profit from them. Building temples, granaries, and libraries will sap your cash. Marketplaces will only turn a profit if you have at least 4 coins being generated; otherwise, they're at best a wash. I will keep cities happy with warriors as long as I can; then I like to build a happy wonder so I don't have to pay maintenance costs on happy improvements.

Rather than build a wall in a city on a border, I'll build a city or fortify some units on good defensive terrain. A unit fortified on a hill is equal in defense to the same unit behind walls on grass/plains. A unit fortified on a mountain or a river/swamp or river/forest combination is even better. A "defensive" city only costs 40 shields (for the settler) instead of 80 for walls, and will actually produce some shields and arrows. MP has taught me the value of veteran units; the AIs wait until very late in the game to research Feudalism, so you should be able to build Sun Tzu's War Academy if you try.

I can't remember the last non-OCC game where I've paid an AI for peace - the cash always flows in the other direction. If an AI declares war on me, great - that means they'll be offering money and/or techs for peace later!

As to caravans, it's pointless to build them too early and get +0 trade routes. If I'm trading with myself, I look for two cities with a total of at least 16 trade arrows. Most of the time, I don't bother and just build settlers and military units instead...

[debeest]

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 10-18-2000 03:13 AM</font> Man, I love this site. ...

Yeah!

quote: 1) ... after you build a temple, how long do you wait to build another city improvement?

Until about 1942. Well, no, it actually depends hugely on the strategy you choose for a particular game. If you're going to play expansionist/ICS, don't bother with other improvements; build only units. If you're playing One-City Challenge, spend your gold to rush-buy improvements as soon as they're needed, and the rest of the time use shields to build units. Either way, don't tie up your production with improvements.

quote: 2) Related question: how long do you stay in monarchy? In a Prince game, I tend to research with these goals: Monarchy-Literacy-Trade-Republic-Invention-Democracy, switching governments as soon as I can. But when I go to Republic now, it doesn't seem to do any good; the advantages in terms of science and money are offset by the need to divert arrows to luxuries and rush-build happiness improvements. Democracy seems to present the same problems.

You're absolutely right; if you balance the increased trade against the need for luxuries and the loss of free unit maintenance, the change from monarchy is more or less an economic wash for a very long period of the game. I've tended to play extremely long monarchies -- up to and even beyond the time when the actual king of France, for example, was overthrown. But nowadays I think I'm likely to go for much earlier republic. The reason? We Love the Consul Day far outweighs the importance of the other factors. I'm inclined to get Michelangelo quickly and use WLTCD to grow all my cities early. Again, it depends on your strategy for that game. In ICS, where each city may be small and the free unit support is a large fraction of its production, long monarchy can work very well. In OCC, where one of the essential points is rapid growth, early WLTCD seems vital.

quote: 3) Do you all really do without city walls? I can't seem to part with them, especially since it takes forever to get a defensive unit that can hold its own against an elephant; besides, they're as cheap as all but the cheapest units, and they require no support. It seems at the very least that a capital and a science city should have them, no? And, yes, I know a horseman can win against an elephant on the attack, but thanks to my road infrastructure the elephant can often get to my city before I can get to him. What to do?

ICS? Don't really need walls. The AI counts your units and decides how strong you are. If you've got a million warriors just to maintain happiness in infinite cities, the AI will leave you alone. And if you lose a city or two to the barbarians, it doesn't matter much. OCC? Better get those walls up if you ever intend to deny any AI demand!

quote: 4) I don't mind giving techs away to make friends, but do you all really give away money at the beginning? I keep making contact early with civs that want everything I have, and I'm both too proud and too nervous about low cash flow to say yes. Then, of course, the wars start.

Hmmm. The AI always demands techs from me, not money. Give techs away to keep peace early and they won't be so mean later until you're Supreme. I guess I'd give money if that's what they demanded.

quote: 5) In this most recent game, after ending up in war after war because I refused demands for monetary tribute, I finally got the opportunity to sack an enemy city. Suddenly, everyone seemed to "grow weary of this endless fighting" -- even civs whose cities I hadn't touched. Coincidence, or strategy?

An AI civ will usually offer cease/peace when you capture one of its cities, OR when it takes yours. That won't usually influence other civs much, but I think it can sometimes.

[This message has been edited by debeest (edited October 18, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by debeest (edited October 18, 2000).]

[Smash]

Some darn good advise and tips given and following any or all will lead to success but all you really need to remember for king level is, in the beginning,your first 3 citizens are content.You don't have to do a thing for happiness up to size 3.Three units and a temple with Myst will keep a city good up to size 8.Because of this,you can build settlers at will.You should have the most cities of any nation fairly quickly.If you so choose.This built in Mich's Chapel makes Republics much easier to run on king.Far less preparation is needed before the switch can be made.

Civ is much easier with the SSC.On any level.

[Scouse Gits]

SCG - good advice! But don't think all ICS's play the same way - they don't!
---------------
SG (2)

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

[quote]<font size=1>
1) Caravans, caravans, caravans...instead of what? I'm still having trouble "banging them out," because my cities always seem to need something.

2) Related question: how long do you stay in monarchy?

1. Well, I once read a rule of thumb here that you don't build a marketplace until you have at least 5 arrows/turn in your trade box for the city, and you don't build a library until you have at least 6 beakers for the city per turn. I'm not sure about the math, and frankly, I never bothered to find out. But at least that indicates to me that I should be building settlers, then caravans, in the time before the city gets to a size to justify other improvements. I only build temples/colosseums in the early going if the city has become so big that there's no other way to keep order. Building lots of settlers helps avoid that kind of too-fast growth.

Anyway, I try to always use my smaller cities to produce caravans and settlers until they're producing enough arrows and beakers to make marketplaces and libraries worthwhile. And when you have built those improvements, it becomes worthwhile to defend with walls, especially if the city is on a border. And then aqueducts, and banks, and universities... but you get the idea. The key is, keep expanding, and use those size 2 and 3 cities to produce caravans to feed to the bigger cities, which will be busy producing wonders and the improvements that will really boost your beakers and gold. If you're trying to fight being a closet perfectionist like me, rationalize not building early improvements on the grounds that the city isn't really big enough to benefit from them.

2. Before moving to Republic, I try my utmost to get Michelangelo's, or to at least have HG already and be close to getting MC. If I have happiness wonders, then I can move to Republic with no worries. Even without MC, assuming I have some sort of happiness wonder, I find Republic to provide me with better science than Monarchy. Without any happiness wonders... I'm not sure when I'd switch.

Hope that helps... you're on your way.

STYOM
[This message has been edited by Six Thousand Year Old Man (edited October 18, 2000).]

[SCG]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 10-18-2000 03:13 AM</font> 1) Caravans, caravans, caravans...instead of what? I'm still having trouble "banging them out," because my cities always seem to need something. Maybe I should ask it this way: after you build a temple, how long do you wait to build another city improvement?

becides the caravans for wonders vs for trade, there is also the perfectionist vs ICS approach to concider. ICSers simply don't build improvements, while perfectionists try and get the most from each city (I tend to fall here). I take it on a city by city basis, and try and decide which would best allow the city to improve now and which would best allow the city to improve long term. After each thing i build, if i haven't finished my 3 trade routes, I look to see why not and raise the priority of building a trade caravan.
When growing is a priority, marketplaces, banks and caravans rank highest on my priority list, when science advances are more important, libraries and caravans rate highest on my list.

quote: 2) Related question: how long do you stay in monarchy?

I try and get to rep/demo ASAP. lower corruption, more trade arrows and potential WLTxD growth dwarfs most monarchy benefits in my eyes.

quote: 3) Do you all really do without city walls?

I only build city walls in frontier cities. As the frontier expands, older city walls provide an economic boost As for the problem of 2-movement attackers, I don't usually build roads more than 2 spaces from the frontier city centers unless it is a "Great Trade Road", in which the road is constantly patrolled by caravans, diplomats, and NON units

quote: 4) I don't mind giving techs away to make friends, but do you all really give away money at the beginning? I keep making contact early with civs that want everything I have, and I'm both too proud and too nervous about low cash flow to say yes. Then, of course, the wars start.

I virtually never give money away, and as for techs, it depends on the situation - usually, i just let them attack, it makes for cheaper AI cities

quote: 5) In this most recent game, after ending up in war after war because I refused demands for monetary tribute, I finally got the opportunity to sack an enemy city. Suddenly, everyone seemed to "grow weary of this endless fighting" -- even civs whose cities I hadn't touched. Coincidence, or strategy?

Sounds like there might have been a change in the power heirarchy? (ie the civ whose city you sacked was close to you in power and taking its city moved you ahead of them?) Several aspects of the game are rather strongly dependant on your power ranking vs the AI's, that could just be another way of it manefesting itself...
[This message has been edited by SCG (edited October 18, 2000).]

[Simpson II]

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 10-18-2000 03:13 AM 1) Caravans, caravans, caravans...instead of what? I'm still having trouble "banging them out," because my cities always seem to need something. Maybe I should ask it this way: after you build a temple, how long do you wait to build another city improvement?

It depends. If I'm playing perfectionist with a dozen cities, the next thing I build will be a marketplace ready to go to Republic and celebrate. This is the only real reason to build marketplaces early on - look at the return on investment. If a city is producing 10 gold/turn, and you build a marketplace, then the time to pay back the expenditure is over 30 turns! Granaries OTOH are good in some ways, but switching to rebublic for celebrations is usually a better growth strategy.
Just look at your empire and think about what will maximize your productivity and military success.

quote: 2) Related question: how long do you stay in monarchy? In a Prince game, I tend to research with these goals: Monarchy-Literacy-Trade-Republic-Invention-Democracy, switching governments as soon as I can. But when I go to Republic now, it doesn't seem to do any good; the advantages in terms of science and money are offset by the need to divert arrows to luxuries and rush-build happiness improvements. Democracy seems to present the same problems.

Just try Republic on Deity! As someone else said, the point of Republic early on is WLTCD. It's the single most powerful effect in the game.

quote: 3) Do you all really do without city walls? I can't seem to part with them, especially since it takes forever to get a defensive unit that can hold its own against an elephant; besides, they're as cheap as all but the cheapest units, and they require no support. It seems at the very least that a capital and a science city should have them, no? And, yes, I know a horseman can win against an elephant on the attack, but thanks to my road infrastructure the elephant can often get to my city before I can get to him. What to do?

I know, it's easy to get used to them. But walls aren't cheap, they cost 80 shields! You could have a library instead, or many other useful items. Eventually cities will get walls, certainly, but early in the game, playing just a little bit faster will snowball into a big advantage in the late game. It's a calculated risk with a big pay-off. Build a couple of diplomats if there are AIs nearby and have them scout around, the AI is pathetic at sneaking up on you.
Try to keep the peace, gift techs and so on. Also try to set up fortified positions where the AI brings it's troops down to attack. It's quite predictable in this, and you can often deflect their army with a couple of phalanxes in a mountain fortress.

quote: 4) I don't mind giving techs away to make friends, but do you all really give away money at the beginning? I keep making contact early with civs that want everything I have, and I'm both too proud and too nervous about low cash flow to say yes. Then, of course, the wars start.

Spend your cash regularly and they will never have the chance to demand anything worth worrying about. Gift techs before they get the chance to demand them. If they do go to war, try to end it quickly by spending the cash, then calling them up. Hopefully they will now ask for a tech. As a last resort, try to get 2 NON elephants and attack one of their cities. This usually makes them more friendly! Or, if you really can't live in peace, take the offensive away from your cities. I almost never give more than 25 gold to an AI, personally.

quote: 5) In this most recent game, after ending up in war after war because I refused demands for monetary tribute, I finally got the opportunity to sack an enemy city. Suddenly, everyone seemed to "grow weary of this endless fighting" -- even civs whose cities I hadn't touched. Coincidence, or strategy?

Possibly you had built lots of troops in the meantime? I've no idea to be honest, but I'll look out for it in future.

----------------------
Simpson II, newly crowned prince I believe.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

What can I say? You guys rock! I thought you all might like to know the biggest things I've learned here (aside from "caravans, caravans, caravans"), since I'll bet it's advice that can be given to a lot of newbies:

1) In spite of what most women will tell most men, size does matter . I didn't know AIs are afraid of bigger empires. But that's not all; a consistant mistake I've been making is to overbuild cities because I'm paying attention to what year it is, not how big they are.

2) "Quake" is better preparation for civving than "SimCity." I was addicted to both before CivII, but they're really opposites in terms of strategy; Quake's ethos of "just keep moving" sounds like it would serve me better than SimCity's "go slow, be careful" strategy, at least at the beginning.

3) The pen is mighter than the sword: in spite of getting them really early (writing is always my third or fourth tech), I barely use diplomats. That's gonna change.

4) Pride goeth before the fall: an obsession with keeping my cities from being taken, and keeping the AI from extorting money and techs -- because they're mine, dammit! -- is turning out to be counter-productive at higher levels.

Thus armed, I sense a spectacularly unproductive weekend ahead. Thanks again! I'm looking forward to hanging out here.

------------------
Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[SCG]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 10-18-2000 07:19 PM</font> SCG - good advice! But don't think all ICS's play the same way - they don't! --------------- SG (2)

I don't, I was just indirectly responding to DaveV's post. I like to think of myself as a large world ICSer While small world ICS generally has to build every 2 tiles to be able to get near the 255 city limit, that isn't necessary on the large world. My large world strategy involves rapid city expansion (at most 3 tiles overlap) until contact is made with the enemy, or until a rep govt has been discovered. From there temples, and marketplaces so that when the city reaches size 3 it will celebrate. Since building settlers when celebrating doesn't decrease city size (size 4+, extra food available), I can really crank out settlers at a phenominal rate. Also, since growth and expansion are the only real goals, marketplaces, banks, aquaducts, and temples are for the most part the only structures I build, and caravans and settlers (and enough diplomats to buy real defences, usually from enemy cities) are the only units I build. Always try to have every city either supporting or building at least 1 settler at all times As with any good ICS strategy, libraries are unnecessary because of the raw science output of the the 'infinite' cities.

As a side note on odd-sized cities not celebrating - there are ways around that. HG/CfC, courthouses in Demo, or simply going way past the riot limit so that black hats (and the associated bugs) come into play.

Certainly not DaveV's general idea of ICS, but I still think of it as ICS

Edit: Actually, on King level, odd sized cities will celebrate, since you start with 2 more content citizens than on diety.
------------------
Sleep is a luxury and I don't have Shakespeare's Theatre in my back yard.
[This message has been edited by SCG (edited October 19, 2000).]

[Bohlen]

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 10-19-2000 07:59 AM 4) Pride goeth before the fall: an obsession with keeping my cities from being taken, and keeping the AI from extorting money and techs -- because they're mine, dammit! -- is turning out to be counter-productive at higher levels.

Man, I know what you mean about that. I used to tell the AI to go jump in a lake whenever they demanded tribute...and sometimes I would get caught in a bad position and lose some units, or worse, a city. Now, I take the AI's demands as a complement. I know I must be off to a good start if all civs can't stand to look at me.

Although you might have to twist your own arm to give up some early money or techs, no one said that you couldn't be two faced about it. Give up a few bucks while muttering, "Your time will come, evil one," under your breath. When you've set up your defenses and brought a real army together, tell all the other civs to bite it while you ask for some money yourself. That is when you'll laugh at how easily you played the AI as a fool.

[Scouse Gits]

SCG - Am I correct in thinking you do an ICS game in Republic? Interesting! Don't you find building Temples a waste of potential settlers/caravans?
----------
SG (2)

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 10-19-2000 07:17 PM SCG - Am I correct in thinking you do an ICS game in Republic? Interesting! Don't you find building Temples a waste of potential settlers/caravans? ---------- SG (2)

Not at all, because it allows me to keep my cities larger in size. The biggest advantage of republic is the WLTCD and its growth, and so i use that in conjunction with settlers. Without temples, its a heck of a lot harder to get that celebration from 3 to 4, especially when building a settler shrinks it back down to 3 before the celebration re-kicks in (you know how the AI loves to take away trade tiles vs food tiles). Building a settler before size 4 once the economy is in full swing negates that. Since I'm in republic, I can bring in a lot more gold for rush building temples, settlers and marketplaces and caravans. Once a frontier city is size 4, it can spawn a city a turn for about several turns and still grow to 5 the round I stop, still supporting a settler. I used to play that I would use 3 settlers to build a city so it would be able to celebrate right off, rush the temple, rush the marketplace, and rush the settler, but even with caravans, i can drain my gold pretty quickly that way and of course on diety its not as likely to celebrate first turn, so a couple of turns to prepare and grow makes more sense to me now.

Now if you were talking colosseums or cathedrals, I would agree with you. Until I build/capture Mikes/JSB, only the shakespeare city and a few of my other core cities threaten to need sewer systems. Once there and with railroads, I could have so many "breeder cities" that I would struggle to find efficient uses for the all of them.

------------------
Sleep is a luxury and I don't have Shakespeare's Theatre in my back yard.

[Scouse Gits]

I will try a spell in Republic! Could be an interesting variation on ICS!! I assume the first wonder you build is the Gardens?
-------
SG (2)