space race with minimum cities-strategies-

[Ming]

I can't see a situation where the GL wouldn't be worth it. Again.. I was always researching the highest science available (if they beat you to superconducter, it's all over) I didn't have time for the little sciences. The nice thing about AI's is, that they trade like crazy. They don't stop trading like what happens in MP. I got tons of the little sciences through GL. I consider it one of the key wonders... that and the theater for happiness.
I built near the ocean (but only had access to an inner sea) The early trade was key. I didn't worry about production at first. So I would recommend starting near ocean. On a small world, you shouldn't need ships. My ships were all bribed from barbarians or ai's. But that might be a problem on a midsized world. Contact with other civs was key to my economy.

[geofelt]

Ming; Would you post in a new thread your approach to tribute? I know you need to be supreme, and I find that hard to be in a one city game. Exactly what does it take to be supreme? Also, Do you repeatedly ask every turn, or do you wait? When does tribute start to become non-effective? Which civs do you pick on?
Also, could you post exactly how to recognise the hut pattern?
In the space race, I seem to build the 15 structual, 3,3 component and 1,1,1 module unit taking 15.7 years with fusion. The next faster ship with 4,4 components takes only two years less, and since it takes two turns to build two components it is not worth it. How many structuals does it take for a 2,2 component ship, and how long does it take?
I had not thought of using two engineers every turn to clean up pollution. I had been building mass transit/recycling/solar plants.
The thought also occurred to me that these engineers could also ruin the terrain for AI city sites nearby. They could transform by mining any grassland or plains squares that could harbor an annoying competing city. As far as I know, the AI will not build on anything but plains or grassland.

[Carolus Rex]

After several tries I was successful last night. Here's my experience.

Small world, raging hordes, 7 civs, no restarting of eliminated civs. Three special resources: buffalo, gold and a whale.

The wonders: Colossus, GL, Copernicus' Observatory, Shakespeare's Theatre, INC, UN and the Apollo Program. Strangely enough the GL wasn't as useful as it was in my earlier tries.

The city only produced about 50 shields (no manufacturing plant), so it was really tough to build the space ship. In the end I had to disband all units (but two) and rush buy the last structurals. I bought the last 4 or 5 from scratch as I wanted one unit in Rome and one in a choking point. I sold off some improvements and raised taxes to 100% after discovering fusion power to raise cash. With 80 shields (or more), it obviously would have been a lot easier.

The ship was 15-3-3-1-1-1 and took 15.7 years. Arrived to AC 2017. None of the other civs started building their ships so it was a race against the time limit.

I had a diplomat and some defensive units in a fortress on a mountain. This really helped against my Northern neighbour, the Mongols. I had a few NONE units from goody huts, but when I bought Mongolian units using the dip in the fortress they were attached to Rome which was too close. I also built a couple of modern units to upgrade the defense in the fortress.

The city was on a river and had city walls. I only kept a NONE veteran horseman in it. At one point I thought it was all over. Four barbarian dragoons landed by sea and immediately attacked the city. The strength bar of the horsie didn't even move!

The city improvements (not in the order I built them): temple (sold off after ST), library, marketplace, factory, hydro plant, university, superhighways, city walls, aqueduct, sewer system, mass transit. All I can remember right now.

I stayed in monarchy until I discovered democracy. Grew the city by we love the president days to size 20.

On the wonders: even though GL didn't help as much as in earlier tries I think it's difficult without it. In another try I didn't have UN and was killed in the 1980s by a former ally. The Theatre was very useful.

After launching the ship I started cranking out military units. I was sneak attacked by the Mongols and barely had enough units to fight off the first wave.

It was fun.

I don't think it's possible to launch a ship with less than 3 components. I did some testing, the last figure is the probability of success:

15-3-3-1-1-1, 15.7 years, 100%
15-3-4-1-1-1, 16.4 years, ?
15-4-3-1-1-1, 16.4 years, 99%
15-4-4-1-1-1, 17.1 years, 98%
16-4-4-1-1-1, 17.3 years, 98%
17-4-4-1-1-1, 13.2 years, 100% (NB!)
18-5-5-1-1-1, 14.4 years, 100%
19-5-5-1-1-1, 14.6 years, 100%
20-5-5-1-1-1, 14.7 years, 100%
21-5-5-1-1-1, 10.0 years, 100% (NB!)

I think 15-3-3-1-1-1 is the best choice, too many extra turns to get the flight time down.

Sorry for the long post!

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

More info on the same game.

I only had one settler, cleaning up pollution took forever. Of course it wasn't enough to cause global warming, but more importantly the reduction in the productivity of the polluted squares wasn't critical.

I built a few freights for disbanding purposes, but didn't trade actively. Instead, AI civs kept sending caravans and freights to me. With superhighways the three trade routes yielded 15-16 arrows each. No bonuses though.

In another try I cranked out food freights every turn, had about 30 or 40 of them. Don't know how useful they would have been as I was killed before the space race.

I used geofelt's tip, positioning a spare diplomat in an area preventing the AI civs to overlap.

Raging hordes was a good source of income.

Carolus

[Ming]

Congratulations Carolus Rex... I hope you had as much fun doing it as I did. The games go quick, and they are a riot.
The key to building an army is to have a diplo (well protected by military) close to your city, but closer to another civ. They march their troops up to check you out, and they become your non units. You can also probably snag a settler this way, so you have two available to clean up polution later (it really helps)
You strategy and play sounds very similar to my run at it. Sell everything and buy your spaceship before they get super conductor.
And I love the fun that begins when you launch your space craft. I built tons of cruise missiles (one a turn) and just hit anything that came at me.
Geofelt... I've done tribute before. But here is a quick summary. And this is how I started my one city run. Use the goody hut starting strategy... Don't lay down your first city until you find a GREAT spot. In the process hit every goody hut you can. To learn the pattern... created a custom map with all land. LOOK AT THE PATTERN... THERE IS ONE... Once you find a few huts, you can guess where more are (assuming there is land)
Early in the game, the original non units should get as far away from you city as possible, so any more military you get from huts will probably be non attached because other civs are closer. Search the world.
The military you get will keep you supreme for a long time. Don't ask for tribute every turn... give them a chance to get some more money. If they have a science you don't have, they will give that to you first. If they declare war, who cares, wait a few turns, and they will want peace, and they will pay you for that too.
So that's the short version... this post is long enough now.
Happy Hunting!

[TCO]

Did it in chieftan. Pretty easy. Tried in diety and got crushed by an invasion.

I noticed in chieftan that I can bribe units with no war starting. i thought they declared war for this...

[Theben]

I've been on a SMAC high lately but this thread made me come back down. I started the 1 city game earlier this morning, and although I don't think I'll win, it's been a LOT of fun trying. Here's my run:

Diety, small world, raging hordes, normal land,random results of continents, arid, 3 or 4 billion years.

wonders: colossus, great library, MPE, sheakspeare's, Rick's crusade, Isaac's school, ASTC, Darwin's, SOL, Hoover

Colossus, GL, KRC, Theatre ,all definite must-have's. Tried for Copernicus but the Carthaginians beat me to it. The rest pretty much so others wouldn't get 'em.

I didn't find a starting place until about 3250-turns out there really weren't any great ones. This one had 2 whales and was easily defendable; the city could only be approached from 2 directions and one side was covered by the Vikings. I had also hilled/fortressed 1 square on each side of my city for defense. Before I founded my capital I found about 5-6 "non" units and demanded tribute successfully for several turns. KRC was a big help, w/rr's and a size 22 city I was producing 40 shields before industrialization. The big fun was when the Carthaginians took a nearby Chinese city (size 1) and started to approach me. I killed 3 units on the shore with a dreadnought, then landed a veteran spy and bought the city. I then discovered how huge the enemy army aroung me was. 192 gold purchased a size 1 city and 12 army units! I used the army to finish off the rest of the enemy forces around me; w/ bribes I destroyed 21 enemy units that round! I managed to get 6 units back to my capital before disbanding the city. Then these units + 2 others went and took Carthage, splitting them into civil war. I would love to know exactly how much damage that one spy action caused them, heh heh heh. Maybe that's why spies are too tough?

Are we allowed to do anything with enemies cities that are captured besides attempting to disband them? Build defensive units, walls, until we can disband them w/o fearing reconquest?

[geofelt]

There are no official rules, but in my mind, you should not profit any more than necessary from acquired cities. If a hut produces a city, start the steps to disband it or have it captured. This case can't be helped.
If a city enroaches on your full territory, it seems reasonable that you should be allowed to get rid of it any way you can. As soon as possible, you should disband the city. Selling improvements and reassigning any units is OK.

[rah]

I'm trying it now and i've beat the money problem, and if you beat the money problem, you can concentrate on science. You do not need to be supreme to demand tribute. I'm am currently inadaquate and i'm raking in 1000 to 2000 dollars every 5-7 turns. If you have enought science and units on the board you can continue to demand tribute. While one civ may not cooperate, most do. If you have money, you can bribe the biggest army. And the secret is.......build SOL and UN. If you have money you can build them all just to keep the ai's from getting them. It's fun watching them build 300 shield settlers. I let them build pyramid since it helps them get money for me to demand, and i let them build mc and jsb. I let them have the cheap ones too. Using UN, just watch when they start building up money(every 5 to 7 turns) then when they get enough just drop into anarchy at the end of your turn and demand away. at the begining of the next turn you're back in demo. I got 2500 in one pass. You lose the science for that turn, but if you have shakes, you can keep your science at 100% the rest of the time and make up for it. When i finish, i'll post my landing year. It doesn't make it automatic, but man does it help. I'm stockpilling spys to help so i can disband one for each spaceship part and buy the rest. This should speed things up considerably. So what wonders do you like, buy them all. HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

[Carolus Rex]

Thanks Ming,

This has gotten me really hooked again, I've been trying all weekend to repeat it (still on a small map) WITHOUT SUCCESS.

IT DRIVES ME CRAZY!!!

In 30 or 40 started games I either wandered around until 2500 BC without finding The Starting Position (and I quit) or ended up killed by aggressive neighbours or losed the space race.

Two obvious notes on the city location. It has to be well defended and arrow rich. In games were I had one but not the other I was either crushed or lagged in science.

Preferably mountains (nearby, not within the city radius unless there's gold) or hills in bottlenecks for defense. In my only successful try I had this to my north/north east and could block off the evil Mongols. To the west of Rome it was fairly open land, but it was unsettled until very late in the game. This provided a lot of gold as there was several barbarian uprisings in the area.

Also, when contacted by minor civs threatened by stronger neighbours I took a gamble accepting money for declaring war on the aggressor. This happened twice and I got away with it both times. I didn't demand tribute a lot in that game.

On the wonders:

In normal games I always want Marco Polo's Embassy rather than the GL, haven't tried it with one city yet. Maybe it's a better choice?

In some games one AI civ conquered all the others. Then I went for the Hoover Dam instead of a single hydro plant out of fear (not really!) of being outproduced. They killed me instead. This has been the rule evry time I choose not to build the UN. A good enough defensive position (and/or major kissing up) possibly compensates not having the UN.

I like ST and the ability to lower the luxuries' rate after we love the president days without causing unhappiness. Haven't tried without any of the science wonders, but I think it is very difficult without them. But then again I never thought it would be possible to win the space race with only one city, so...

I have to correct myself on the number of components needed to launch the space ship. In one of my other tries the Romans (AI civ) launched a 18-1-1-1-1-1 fusion powered ship, estimated flight time 37.6 years. Here are some more alternatives, probability of success is last. All are fusionpowered.

15-2-2-1-1-1, 21.0 years, 94%
16-2-2-1-1-1, 21.3 years, 94%
17-2-2-1-1-1, 21.6 years, 94%

It continues up to 22-2-2-1-1-1 without improving things (22.9 years, 93%) and then I stopped.

So by building two components less you increase flight time with six years and lower the probability of success to 94%. Depending on how long it takes to build two more components and your risk aversion, 15-2-2-1-1-1 might be worthwhile.

Final question: Am I the only one that build military units? I have diplos out scouting for bribable units early on, but sometimes they cost to much or the diplos are expelled. Also, late in the game bribing gets very expensive and without Leo's you have to get a couple of modern units somehow.

Carolus

[rah]

Well, the stategy worked great, the ship is launched and due to land around 1953. I really think I could have launched earlier but I was having way to much fun attacking people. Laying back in a defensive position is the best way to lose. Create some mountain defense positions in your opponents territory to keep them busy. A mountain square (just outside a city zone) with an engineer, spy, defensive unit and an offensive unit keeps them real busy. When I started building the spaceship, I couldn't demand anymore, but by alternating being at war and making peace, I still was able to get 10000 more dollars out of them. Built my spaceship in 24 turns. A good combo was disband a food caravan (25) and my city was cranking 65. Structures every turn without spending money. I also build hoover to keep them from getting it. (seti too). Of course, I had so much money I built almost everything except pyr. mc mp jsb col kr et man(of course) I'm defending with rifles, they haven't built armor or bomobers yet. I'm building stealth fighters and cruise mis. to defend waiting for landing.
My army up to launch consisted of around 50 (none) units. I did have 2 frigates that i bribed from barbs that were attached to rome, but once my diplos got out to see, those frigates weren't needed any more. My city was cranking over 1050 science a turn.
Have fun. Find a good starting position that can be defended.

[Carolus Rex]

On AI overlap (which annoys the hell out of me, especially in these games).

I don't want to run the risk of starting a war against a strong AI civ simply because a puny size 2 city covers some of my terrain squares. Preventive measusres à la geofelt is what I have been using, i.e. having dips in potential AI city locations. It often doesn't take more than two.

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

rah,

Your post really hurts my ego:-)

How the heck is it possible to land 1953 with only one city? You built your space ship in 24 turns, I take it you built every part of it in one turn? So it probably was 15-3-3-1-1-1 and took 15.7 years, implying a launch 1938.

I haven't built SETI or a research lab in any of my tries, though. Had my city produced 80 shields or more I could probably have sliced off, say, 15-20 years from 2017 but that's it.

Carolus

[Ming]

I've been talking to Rah on the phone... talk about ego busting... But, the good news is, the record should fall. He started with no sciences, and started his city in a forest. So by using his tactics, the record should fall by about 20 years. Scarey thought! I will give it a couple more tries, because I can't stand Rah beating me at anything. I had never though about using SOL to drop back into anarchy for a turn so I could continue demanding tribute far longer than usual. With money no longer be an issue... 100% science should really help in the mid game. Your record will fall Rah. Count on it!

[Carolus Rex]

AHA!

Airbase on hills, there we have it

Mind you, I didn't use them.

I think any experienced deity player can do it, it's a matter of psychology and practice. I was 100% certain that it was impossible until Ming posted his successful attempt. It tore down my mental barrier, before that I wouldn't even have tried. In fact, I had trouble trying to win the space race with anything less than seven cities.

Still, I can't do it consistently yet (see the post above), i.e. regardless of starting position.

Speaking of starting positions. I also tried more times than I can remember and quit most of them due to bad terrain. Someone please enlighten me! Is there a way to start a new game without quitting the game first? I'm either stupid or blind or both, but I can't do it.

There has to be some way! Restarting the game and having to go through all the settings each time from scratch is a killer (even when pressing enter).

Carolus