Intermediate skill level strategy discussion =)

[Hawkx9]

Ah... cavebear,
... you've just hit upon something I love to utilize but have yet to post about... combining Diplomats with Blitzkreiging Crusaders. They are the perfect assaulting defense. (how's that for an oxymoron?) They can bribe themselves and their respective platoon out of a bind whilst utilizing 2-mov't speed. Excellent.

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~work like you don't need the money~
~love like you've never been hurt~
~dance like nobody's watchin'~
~live like there's no tomorrow~
[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 29, 2000).]

[jpk]

Campo:

Whether it is better to use diplomats or extra attacking units depends upon the situation. Your example of knights against pikeman is a good example of what can go wrong. If I recall correctly a knight's attack value is 4 and a fortified pikeman's defense value is 6. There might be a difference in hit points, I don't remember. This is before city walls. Even if your knight is a veteran the attack value is only equal to the defense value of a nonveteran pikeman, again this is before the effect of city walls is introduced. When attacking I think it is important to have an attack value significantly higher than the defense value of any likely defender. This is one reason why I like to develop a significant technological lead.

Once pikemen appear in quantity, knights should retire to the round table.

[Hawkx9]

Campo,
Are you actually getting cannons and musketeers before the AI throws up any walls? When I say early I mean first-tier units, ie. cats, legions, horsies, etc. I've found that if the AI intends to put up walls in its larger cities that it will do so far before Gunpowder... in my experience at least. IMO, unless you're just taking out an early neighbor, 1-mov't units are just too slow. I always use 2-mov't units for conquest unless I'm in Fundie and plan on bribing after the capital falls. Anything else will simply be too slow, roads or no.

jpk,
I agree with you in that Knights should leave the battle scene when a lot of pikemen show up. It seems to me that, for early strikes, one should shoot directly for Knights or Crusaders and not meddle with anything else. For example, if you want to attack with Knights, move right up that path. Don't dabble in other techs to get Wonders, for instance. Personally, I enjoy the defense factor of the Knight but enjoy Mike's Chapel ever more, so if I want to attack someone early I'm going to use Crusaders since they take no extra research. IMO, the happy-wonder path is better when you've fenced off any opponents, and the warrior path if you've got peeps in your backyard.

Q...
Would you rather have Mike's Chapel + Crusaders or Sun Tzu + Knights? Gotta love both but my game plan will definately dictate the decision. I'd choose ST+Knights for pure war, MC+Crusaders to clear out a couple civs before shooting up the tech ladder for a better unit.

... my take on attack & defense unit-stats ...
When in conquer mode (aiming to take out a whole civ, not just one city), if I had my choice, I'd always choose Legion over Catapults and Knights over Crusaders.
"Why take the lower attack value when conquest is the goal?"
It's simple in my mind... the doubled defense factor is proportionally better than the smaller (relatively) attack advantage. In my experience, Legion and Knights are going to live longer making them a better value. That extra point or two isn't going to make the difference in an appropriately executed attack.
"Well, that's easily fixable. Just pair it with a good defensive unit."
If you attempt to do this, you've just hugely complicated your attack. Coordinating one unit type is infinately easier than two. Think about it... now you have to produce and balance two types of units whilst keeping them together on the battlefield. ...and good luck keeping a defensive unit with your Crusaders.
Just my $.02

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~work like you don't need the money~
~love like you've never been hurt~
~dance like nobody's watchin'~
~live like there's no tomorrow~
[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 29, 2000).]

[Campo]

quote: Originally posted by Hawkx9 on 06-29-2000 12:38 PM Campo, Are you actually getting cannons and musketeers before the AI throws up any walls?

No, the AI usually has walls before I get either knights/crusaders or cannons. But against phalanx and pikement the cannons usually win despite the walls, while the knights/crusaders can get wiped out.

Usually there's a close civ that I take out very early with archers/horsemen, or sometimes legions. That's before city walls. This is when it's so close that we're competing for territory to settle. But it's generally only one, or at most two, AI civs.

[cavebear]

Hawke, I'm not confident about the Crusaders, even with a dip. Neither has any defensive power. Their defense is still "one", and that isn't much protection.

I agree that the 5 attack is great, but someone who defends with Archers and Chariots is going to make mincemeat of the Crusader/Dip force.

I often have an Archer in the city and another 1 square away on a mountain. With that, your Crusaders are in range of a 3 attack whether at the city gates or one square away. And the Archers never leave the city or the mountain when they attack, so you can't hit them with a second wave of Crusaders on level ground.

[cavebear]

Campo, I hope you mangage to have a fortified defensive unit with those cannons. Else, when they show up at my city gate (with their one square move), I'll eliminate them with an Archer or Chariot and I will never even have to leave my city. If there is a mountain next to my city (which would give a cannon a chance of survival) I will already have a defensive unit fortified there.

[Sabrecat]

Cavebear, the diplo is there to bribe your archers on top of the mountain. then you can't attack the crusaders (with much success) because of the mountain, and then he has free reign on your city. On top of a mountain diplos and crusaders have a defense of three, which i think equals the attack of the archers and chariots.

[Campo]

quote: Originally posted by cavebear on 06-30-2000 08:07 PM Campo, I hope you mangage to have a fortified defensive unit with those cannons.

Oh yeah, at least a musketeer by then, sometimes a rifleman. I stack them so I've got one defensive unit protecting 5-10 cannons. Usually after a couple attacks my defensive unit becomes veteran. That's always been enough against the AI. Could be a problem if there were a sustained attack by enough units, but I haven't lost a stack yet.

[Scouse Gits]

Just a small point - noone has yet mentioned that naval bombardment does not reduce the target city's population and is therefore a preferred method of reducing coastal cities.
The Super Ironclad Strategy is to be recommended to anyone who has yet to try it ...


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[Ken Hinds]

SG1, problem with coastal bombardment is that a vet musketeer in a coastal fortress with barracks will eat up a non-vet destroyer and once there are Alpine troops avaiable even cruisers get beat. If I have 4 or 5 vet marines behind a coastal fortress and backed up by a barracks your battle ships will be toast also.

Ken

[cavebear]

Sabrecat, you can bribe 2 units on a square? And you have enough gold to bribe anyway when I have the more advanced Govt (and gold)?

Campo, if you have musketeers when I have only archers, the game is over anyway... Usually

[Scouse Gits]

Ken - If the age of Alpine Troops has dawned, then the age of espionage is close. It is easier for the spy to destroy the coastal fortress than the walls. The AI does not seem to give the coastal fortress too much priority - even in capitals!
(The Vet Musketeer will often not need the coastal defenses to win against a green destroyer)

To have a serious navy all ships should be vets. An undocumented feature of Sun Tzu's Academy is that all ships reach vet status after a first kill. On all maiden voyages boats should look for easy targets, before the serious work of city destruction begins.

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SG (2)

[Sabrecat]

Cavebear, i gotcha now, i didn't get the right picture in my head, you CAN'T bribe stacked units . You're still assuming that you are leaps and bounds ahead of the compitition, and in most mp games, you're not.

[Ming]

Ken Hinds... the trick to using the veteran iron clad strategy is to use it in that limited window you get BEFORE costal fortresses can be built. In SP games, you should be far enough ahead of the AI that it will be a very large window of opportunity.
But even in MP games, it can be an effective strategy if you are behind in the happiness wonder race or the workshop/SOL race. Once you realize you are going to be beat to those, you go the naval route. I have used it with success, and it has been used against me... right Xin

[cavebear]

Campo, one of the problems with moving defensive units along with cannons is that they only get one move as well, so they can't fortify on the stacked square. That will work better when you get knights, though.

Were you pre or post knights? Knights with cannons are a good group to move around, but it is slow. You might want to just try a few knights; they cost the same as cannons, and the mobility is a plus.

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