Intermediate skill level strategy discussion =)

[DaveV]

jschwagle - answering in reverse order: SSC = super science city. Ideally, it has Colussus, Copernicus, Isaac Newton, library, university, and LOTS of trade arrows.

I rarely build barracks. Sun Tzu's Academy is great for producing vets; if you're far enough ahead in tech, vet status doesn't matter much (try using Dragoons or Cavalry against those same Phalanxes). Some of your units will become vets by virtue of winning. Two things to remember when attacking: show up with more units than you think you'll need, and don't be afraid to take some losses.

Pyramids seem to be the favorite wonder of the AI, so you have to build it early if you're going to build it. In the early game, when you're expanding, rapid city growth may cause disorder at the higher difficulty levels. You'll still find some people who swear by the Pyramids, though.

[SCG]

a lot of people here put a low value on pyramids, mainly because on diety,happiness is a problem even for size one cities depending on how many you have. Since happiness problems only increase with larger cities for the most part, they shun the pyramids to stunt their growth until they are ready for it. if you cna handle the unhappiness, feel free to build them I do.

As for those that play offensively, most swear by the barracks (and Sun Tsu's War Accadamy)

And diplomats tend to go for easier targets more than harder targets, so city walls will be one of the last targets (people will send whole armies at cities to get down walls) I personally would rather wait and just incite a revolt - i get all the structures in tact, along with the defending units.

SSC = Super Science City - usually with several of the science and trade wonders and lots of trade-producing terrain. in OCC (one city challenge), people will turn their one city into a SSC and often produce staggering amounts of science.

[Edward]

jschwagle4685,

I've found that if I send multiple diplomats into a city on the same turn, only one will sabotage production. This means that once one of the diplomats sabotages production, none of the other diplomats entering the same city on the same turn will waste their time on production. They'll all try for real city improvements. I think the subsequent diplomats won't try to sabotage production because there are no shields left in the box to sabotage. The previous spy already sabotaged them all and there won't be any more until the beginning of the next turn. Someone here may have encountered a quirky situation where production was sabotaged while the city had no shields in the box, but it's never happened to me. Note: This also works for spies sabotaging a random improvement "using her judgement".

Much like yours, my diplomats always seem to sabotage production if they're the only one sabotaging the city that turn. As SCG mentioned, diplomats tend to go for crappy stuff first and do the walls only if there's nothing else to sabotage. It'll take multiple diplomats to take down the walls (but it's well worth it, in my opinion).

Inciting revolts is a spy's best ability. I'm trying to wean myself off revolting/subverting because it's so powerful, efficient, and effective.

[SCG]

actually, they will continue to sabotage production, even after one has already succeded that turn. And they will always go after production if there are no structures to tear down, so sending 5 diplomats into a city with nothing in it will just saobtage production over and over again

[jpk]

Campo:

Five diplomats is 150 shields. For only 10 shields more you can have four additional elephants, knights or crusaders in your attck; include catapaults if you don't mind the slow movement. For the same number of shields you can have three additional dragoons in your attack. Of course diplomats do not have any per turn costs: either in shields or unhappiness.

A diplomat that tries to sabotage a city is lost for sure at 30 shields a pop. The advantage of putting fighting units to risk is that upon capturing the city you do not lose the improvements (other than temples and cathedrals). If the city has walls you don't lose more than one unit of population. That means the city can soon be going strong and creating new units of whatever kind you deem necessary.

Perhaps I am missing something because I don't see why losing diplomats is preferable to losing fighting units. I always play against the AI so that might be a difference.

[Hawkx9]

quote: Campo: If the city has walls you don't lose more than one unit of population. That means the city can soon be going strong and creating new units of whatever kind you deem necessary.

I'm usually an AC kinda guy but have been trying out conquest lately. I suppose I never really thought about this... that if you leave the walls up in the target city that it'll only lose one pop point instead of 4-5. Hmm, interesting. Even though you'd need a much larger attacking force, I'm all about superior units so it's not as big a problem. Nice point. I think I'll try leaving the walls up from now on and see where it gets me. I'd much rather use more units (as opposed to diplos targeting the walls) and take the city at a larger pop with improvements to sell than a lower one with none.

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~work like you don't need the money~
~love like you've never been hurt~
~dance like nobody's watchin'~
~live like there's no tomorrow~

[Campo]

quote: Originally posted by Edward on 06-28-2000 11:20 AM It'll take multiple diplomats to take down the walls (but it's well worth it, in my opinion).

My rule of thumb is 5 diplos per city being attacked, to get the walls. It depends on the number of improvements, of course, but at the diplo (as opposed to spy) stage, the AI cities don't usually have all that many. The unit in production often goes first, and temple and barracks often next. The 4th or 5th diplo usually gets the walls, in my experience.

It hurts to lose that many, but it makes a huge difference in attack success.

When I'm on a serious conquest mission I accumulate at least 5 diplos and then have one relatively high-production city churning them out continuously, along with the conquered city if it's adequately defended.
Any spares turn into spies, if you've got Leo's.

[Scouse Gits]

There are times when the walls must be destroyed and occasions when the attacking force has the power to blast through them. The free intelligence the spy provides to make this decision is crucial. Before spies, I believe it is sometimes worth spending a diplomat to look at the place. It is worth knowing whether a city has a barracks or a coastal fortress. Once you have the information about the defences/defenders - the rest is mathmatics -based on the troops at your command.
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SG (2)

[Ken Hinds]

As an intermediate level Diety player I've recently decided to try something new for me. Normally, I'm spread all over the map and my cities get built only where I think I have good terain and then micromanage them extensively. I've only managed to get to AC once on Diety and because I prefer a 75 x 133 map with resetting civs I have never even come close to conquering the world in a regular SP game.

What I decided to do was go for a modified ICS and get industrialization as early as possible. Instead of looking for the best terain I started filling my continent with cities with minimal or no overlap and used roads to tranport my warriors quickly to build HG and Col in the same grassy coastal city. I never hesitate to buy a needed wonder if I can't build it faster than the AI, even if I have to sell things to do it. As soon as I get transports from Industrialization I fill them with caravans/freights and run them to the Japanese or some other perfectionist civ with high pop cities. Run the whole boatload into the same city and even Hides can get you a decent amount of cash and science. If you have several transports you can repeat as soon as you can fill them up. I haven't made it to AC yet on this game, but by doing the same thing with a boatload of dips and spies I'm keeping up with the AI and keeping them convinced to leave me alone.

Ken

[East Street Trader]

Love to read of those boatloads of caravans, Ken. Spend some time in the counting house studying their accounts and I predict your colonists will soon be tramping about on AC with some regularity - no doubt trying to flog some of those hides to the natives up there.

Jschagle. Attitude towards the pyramids is partly influenced by attitude towards WLT-Ds. Let it be whispered only very gently but there is a school of thought which views dependance on WLT-Ds as, well, less than challenging shall we say. A dude who subscribed to such a view (and who likes to build a plenitude of cities) might well think well of the conical-shaped Wonder. One who likes to celebrate often and long will not build the pyramids and indeed, will not routinely build granaries either.

edward. If, mayhap, you are playing on one of the lower levels you do right not to put all your eggs in the subversion basket. It remains a powerful tactic at all levels but is insufficient, by itself, to guarrantee success on deity. In the early stages gold is in shortish supply and there are many calls on the treasury. Later on you can get rich Lord, rich, rich, rich in both fundy and democracy but both have their problems. Timing good subversions when in democracy is a subject to which, on and off, I have devoted some attention (without having progressed much beyond the first step on the road to wisdom). Incidentally, there is a phase in the game when defending against subversion by the A1 is a matter requiring attention. Apologies if you are a regular deity player who has refined subversion techniques beyond my humble level. But if so GIVE WITH THE HOT SUBVERSION TIPS!!

jpk. Interesting post. Must ponder.


PS In re the matter of subversion, I have read that approaching the same city from different squares produces different figures for the cost of inciting revolt. But I have so far been unable to demonstrate this in any game where I have tested it out. The stuff I read states confidently that the phenomenon is not a bug but I am wondering if that turned out to be wrong and it got patched. Anyone know about this?

[DaveV]

EST - bribe cost of a city is based on a calculation involving distance to the capital city of the city's owner. The distance is calculated from the square where the spy/diplo starts, rather than the city square. I think the capital distance is constant if the enemy is Communist, so then it wouldn't matter which square you started from.

[Campo]

quote: Originally posted by jpk on 06-28-2000 03:21 PM Five diplomats is 150 shields. For only 10 shields more you can have four additional elephants, knights or crusaders in your attck; include catapaults if you don't mind the slow movement. . . Perhaps I am missing something because I don't see why losing diplomats is preferable to losing fighting units. I always play against the AI so that might be a difference.

jpk:
Good point about the costs, but the problem is that vet pikemen behind walls can withstand quite an assault from elephants, knights, and crusaders. It's possible to build those extra four attackers and then lose all of them and still not capture the city. Especially if the enemy city has 4 or 5 defensive units (more likely in the capital), or gets reinforced as you approach, or has a river defensive bonus.

I remember once sending, I think, 12 knights and crusaders against a city, and losing all of them to pikemen (don't know how many defenders). My glorious army that was intended to wipe out the 3 AI cities was destroyed. You're right that it's nice to capture the city more intact. But I'd rather capture it in shambles than lose my attackers in a failed attempt.

And sometimes you get lucky and the second diplo takes out the walls. My guideline of 5 is so you don't lose 3 or 4 on improvements and still not get the walls down; then it's a total waste.

[Campo]

Catapults are good, but as you say just so slow to move. At that point in the game there's often a lot of un-roaded terrain to cover.

My favorite early attack army is cannons and a few musketeers. Get them early enough and you shouldn't have to worry about the city walls. As I approach Metallurgy I try to spare a few settlers to road the way to nearby AI civs. I enjoy my early conquering army even more than the later one.

[Edward]

East Street Trader,

You're correct, I play on Emperor level. No deity secrets for revolts and subversions to reveal, I fear.

In the past I've played the peaceful AC scientist. Recently I've been trying to conquer the world. A VERY different strategy is required. It's like a whole new game.

In my limited warmongering experience, I'll have to agree with Hawkx9. Regardless of cost calculations, attack factors, etc. I can't stand having to trudge one movement units across the map. Whether or not it's a better strategy, I just find a horde of knights to be better entertainment.

[cavebear]

Edward - That is exactly why I like knights on those rare occassions when I attack. 2 movement, 4 attack, and 2 defense. A pair of knights, with a dip moving along at the same speed is very nice. You can usually keep the units on defensive terrain approaching a city, and the defensive power becomes 4 or 6.