Killing off AI civs will affect your tech discovery rate

[Platty]

I remember from a strategy book that only on the highest levels does the gap between the AI and you affect the number of beakers required to gain the next advance. On the lower levels it's a straight increase. If I had the book to hand I'd say what the increases were.

[vik]

quote: Originally posted by Paul on 06-14-2000 06:11 PM Yes, I still hold the record. I landed in 1645 in the second fortnight game (the one with the monarchy start). This is the only one of the fortnight games that was started on a random unmodified map, so all the results from the other fortnight games don't officially count as records.

Paul,

I think it's also important to point out that OCC#2 was the last saved game we used, as opposed to making a scenario. I think scenarios are much easier to get a better landing date because of the way new techs are presented to you to research.

[Tom DeMille]

I did a little testing. I started a small map, 7 civs, deity, and made sure all civs had zero techs (edited them with cheat menu). I then started giving myself and others civs techs to see how my advance rate was affected.

The following table lists the beaker requirements for my first 10 advances. It compares the requirement for when all AI civs have no techs, 1 tech, 2 techs, 3 techs, and 10 techs

. . . . . . . . . . . . . All 6 AIs have

beakers for | 0 techs . 1 tech . 3 techs . 10 techs

1st tech . | . 10 . . . . . 10 . . . . 10 . . . . 10
2nd tech . | . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . 18 . . . . 18
3rd tech . | . 27 . . . . . 24 . . . . 24 . . . . 24
4th tech . | . 36 . . . . . 36 . . . . 36 . . . . 36
5th tech . | . 45 . . . . . 45 . . . . 45 . . . . 45
6th tech . | . 66 . . . . . 60 . . . . 60 . . . . 54
7th tech . | . 84 . . . . . 84 . . . . 70 . . . . 63
8th tech . | . 96 . . . . . 96 . . . . 88 . . . . 80
9th tech . | . 108 . . . . 108. . . . 108. . . . 90
10th tech. | . 130 . . . . 130. . . . 120. . . . 110

Clearly the AIs have an effect on your beaker requirements, but the formula that is used escapes me

[This message has been edited by Tom DeMille (edited June 15, 2000).]

[Ming]

Thank you... I was thinking of running similar tests to see what happens. Since I've been mistaken on this point for so long, I wanted to see what was really happening.

Good Job!

[Tom DeMille]

OK, a little more testing, and even more bizarre behaviour. This time I gave 10 techs all at once to progressively more of the AIs.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . # AIs with 10 techs

beakers for | 1 AI . . . . .3 AI . . . 5 AI. . . 6 AI

1st tech . | . 10 . . . . . 10 . . . . 10 . . . . 10
2nd tech . | . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . 18 . . . . 18
3rd tech . | . 27 . . . . . 27 . . . . 24 . . . . 24
4th tech . | . 36 . . . . . 36 . . . . 32 . . . . 36
5th tech . | . 45 . . . . . 45 . . . . 40 . . . . 45
6th tech . | . 66 . . . . . 66 . . . . 48 . . . . 54
7th tech . | . 84 . . . . . 84 . . . . 63 . . . . 63
8th tech . | . 96 . . . . . 96 . . . . 72 . . . . 80
9th tech . | . 108 . . . . 108. . . . 81 . . . . 90
10th tech. | . 130 . . . . 130. . . . 110. . . .110

You can see from the above table that by holding off giving anything to a single AI, my beaker requirements go down. This might explain some of the strange behaviour we see in OCC games. Sometimes beaker requirements will actually go up after we gift science to everyone.

The moral of the story... I'm still working on that.
[This message has been edited by Tom DeMille (edited June 15, 2000).]

[Ming]

Gee... I wonder how all this applies to MP games. It could mean a BIG change in strategy if similar things are happening when AI's aren't involved...

Keep up the good work!

[Aurelius]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 06-15-2000 10:56 AM Gee... I wonder how all this applies to MP games. It could mean a BIG change in strategy if similar things are happening when AI's aren't involved...

You'd have to have science parity with 6 or 7 MP'ers to get the benefits-- according to Tom's chart and assuming it affects non-AI. I've heard MP'ers don't trade in general except with allies if the conditions are right.

[Sten Sture]

But if you tech bomb an opponent with the GL, you could not only waylay their tech track, but reduce your own research time. This would probably work best in a 3 teams of 2 each type game where you could gift a unique tech outside your own team and allowing your own techs to stay separate.

This might be a terrible actual trade but...

Just for example: All six players the following five techs - Brz,Alpha,Laws,Burial,Monarchy

Team #1 has
A: Horse,Wheel
B: Writ,Lit and the GL

Team #2 has
C: Writ,Potry
D: Writ,Myst

Team #3 has
E: WarCode,Currcy
F: Writ,Mason

Teams #2 & #3 are concerned about player B getting Rep (for whatever reason) team #2 knows player B has been researching Rep for a couple of turns.

Player C trades Pottery to Player E vs Currency
Player F trades Masonry to Player D vs Myst

Player B now has Pottery, Currency, Masonry, and Myst for a total of eleven techs and instead of it taking him 72 beakers to get Republic it is going to take him 150 or so. Meanwhile Players C,D,E, & F get to research their ninth tech at a cost of possibly 90 vs their eight tech at a cost of 96.

Obviously, this is an overly simplistic example but what if someone with the GL is trying to get Monotheism or Democracy?

hehehehe.

[Smash]

I am now fully convinced.I cheated up a "perfect" OCC spot with 2 whales and 2 wine and all rivers.I had no restart on.

2 civs were destroyed early and at NO point could I manage 2 turns per tech.Despite giving everything to ai and even at 1839 beakers I could not get 2 turns.Landing 1803

I replayed it with restarts enabled and got "normal" tech rates (2 turnsPer for most game) with significantly less beaker output.Landing 16something

I then played it again,only this time I left 2 civs uncontacted.I did get 2 turns but not for very long.Landing 1750 something.

So,keep ALL civs intact and make sure you contact all of them.The earlier the better.

I posted awile back wondering how this might effect MP but I don't think anyone beleived me.I have seen some "unexplained" changes in MP.

[Tom DeMille]

Excellent set of tests, Smash.

I wonder if your tech rate is affected if you choose less than 7 civs at the outset of the game.

[Scouse Gits]

I have a game going where the Barb activity is rampant. They come in at No. 5, in the top cities. So, I returned to a save when I know they destroyed the Babylonians. Yes, my advances went up a turn after this happened. Good spot Tom!

Smash - I think I saw a comment by you on another thread, when you mentioned that "test" results in Cheat Mode were different from open play. I am testing some aspects of the game - and I agree. Have you any more info?
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SG (2)

[Huey]

I'm playing OCC#11 right now and noticed some strange swings in needed beakers which coincided with changes of my place on the powergraph from last to one but last and back. Coincidence?

[kcbob]

Am I missing something?

If I give the AI some of my advancements so I can research my next advancement in a shorter amount of time, I've also just shortened the AI research time by my gift. Therefore, what good did it do me?

There ain't no way I'm give away Robotics to anyone for any reason.

What am I not seeing?

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Aurelius]

Hi KCBob,

Haven't seen you post in a bit.

Yeah, giving away science like Robotics and Space flight doesn't make sense unless you're playing OCC. Most OCCers don't mind (in fact they like) the rate of science being increased for the AI since they expect to get a ship off to AC way before their AI rivals.

One example, Say you have 4 more years before you get your last sciences to finish off your ship--Fusion. And you have 3 more space parts to make before you can launch. It would be convenient to give away a bunch of science to the AI to facilitate a three year research of Fusion, thus timing the ship launch with the last year of research with nothing to spare.

But science give away is also good earlier in the game--as they say, 'before combustion.'


You'd think they have the best ribs on AC or somethin'

[Sten Sture]

SS Arthur Bryant's prepared for AC launch, Sir!

kcbob - Lets say the AI is researching Invention and you are worried that they may build Leos before you. You know what techs they have from an embassy and see that they don't have Sea, Nav, Rep, BridgeBuilding & Theory of Gravity. You also think that they are landlocked and with Leo's you may be able to wipe out a bunch of their cities. So you call them up an give them all of the above techs - thereby increasing the number of turns before they get Invention. There is a thread in the archive called "A list of data" that runs down the research cost for each additional tech. The AI won't know that you are tricking him - and as a bonus - he likes you and trades maps with you, and you get your research time reduced on your current tech. Win, Win, Win.