We Love the ***** Days

[JERandall]

quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark on 05-03-2000 03:08 PM Yeah, we beat the Pyramids debate to death. I think this thread clearly shows alternatives to granaries/pyramids, esp. in deity and MP games. Why people continue to insist on building pyramids is beyond me.

Y'all must forgive me for bringing up old topics. Although I have read much of the archives, the sheer volume of posts here means that I remain unaware of some of the old debates.

One reason for the continued popularity of early Pyramid building may be that the book _Sid Meier's Civilization II: Advanced Stategies_ by Michael Rymaszewski (Prima Publications; ISBN: 0761509178) stongly advocates doing so. I don't know how many people bought/used this book, but it was pretty influential on my personal Civ2 playing method.

Also, of course, in Civ1, the Pyramids were all powerful, allowing a switch to any form of government. That made extremely early switches to Democracy feasible, leading to ridiculous wins in 1000 B.C. or so. So, some of us who are slow to give up our old habits might just keep building Pyramids in Civ2, even though they are not as powerful as they used to be.

Next time I play, I will forgo building Pyramids, and investigate other early game Wonders.


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JERandall

[Steve Clark]

War4 my friend, it has been awhile! How's your baby? Has he got up to Warlord level yet?

You know, nothing in Civ2 is absolute (except perhaps getting to Monarch asap). With my limited city building strategy, I would much rather get started on building the Colossus and Sun Tzu wonders (and maybe the Great Wall if I feel like it). IMO, they are much more valuable use of the early resources before the start of building gazillion caravans ).

I didn't know about the pyramids in Civ1, that is very interesting. For the past few weeks, I've been devotely playing Pharaoh and reading alot of Egyptian history. The role of pyramids in that society is fascinating, but nothing in Civ1(?) or Civ2 comes close to modeling its purpose.

[Black Bart]

OK I have a question. I don't utilize we love the **** days as much as I should. Plus ming advocated going Rebublic ASAP. I always get the tech early but don't switch because of units in the field exploring. How do you eliminate the police penalty from exploring units to achieve WLT days in those cities? Granted once your cities are big enough the police hit isn't too bad (able to use specialist etc). But the problem is when I first switch to Rebublic or Democracy.

[Canadian War Beaver]

Black Bart ... remember that in republic you are allowed one unit per city.... to explore ...... granted early republic can be difficult to master but heres a tip. Make the switch , increase lux to max..... and grow.....

Now this isn't the perfect way to do it but by growing every turn for the next five or so...... you go from size three to eight in that many turns thus giving more production and science along the way which makes building troops easier.

No point going republic or demo if you dont plan on using wltkd to grow.... the penalties on production aren't worth it otherwise.

Steve..... my son is doing well but i think he is still a chieftan

as for strats..... i like collosus and Suntzu better as well however for early easy aggressive expansion for newbies.... pyramids , wall and gardens is a must have until one properly realizes the benefits of the other wonders.

Yes the pyramids were far too powerfull in civ1...... SOL is a better time for this govt change stuff. However i think civ could do with out it or perhaps modify it so that if you have the tech for the govt, you dont' experience anarchy. I find SOL too powerfull in both SP and MP, especially if you own the happy wonders as well......

[Black Bart]

Thanks, I was thinking Republic and Democracy had the same police penalties. Sometimes I have 2 exploring units from the same city. I'll probably just reassign them. This should definately help out by going Republic and getting up to size 8 and 12 quickly.

[Marcel I]

Txs for your tip Ming, but I didn't mean to say I won't use the "we love the consul/president days" Just that I don't use it under other governments than Republic or Democracy.
Under the "lesser" goverments I haven't tried to crank up the luxury rate, because I guess it ain't very effective.
Anyway, if you use the "WLtXD", timing is important. Get the happiness wonders/improvements beforehand and be sure there are no food or other growth restrictions.


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Adopt, Adapt and Improve

[Scouse Gits]

I've got to argue with you Marcel I. As has been stated above, the benefits of WL*D in the 'lesser' governments can be impressive - take the time to run a few tests it takes two turns to play through - shove luxuries through the roof let the people be happy - this increases trade and therefore you no longer need the silly luxury rate - you can now bring luxuries down often to as low as 20%, but 30% will ussually do the trick and now a fair proportion of your cities will continue celebrating and your civilisation will benefit from higher production and science than it had before even though the rates are lower (because of the 'wasted' luxury rate).
Trust me! - Give it a try it is particularly beneficial when racing for techs in a small (in terms of number of cities) early monarchy and of course in fundy when it can put your science rate up to rival the perfectionist democracies!


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[Marcel I]

Hi SG,

I guess I should be more open to try different tactics with different governments. Mostly I try to switch from Monarchy to Republic/Democracy ASAP. In Monarchy I divide my trade between Tax and Sci. I will try your approach in my next game

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Adopt, Adapt and Improve

[Verrucosus]

Hello,

temporarily celebrating under representative governments to boost population growth for a few turns is a tool that I have used frequently and with great success. However, I have failed so far to make much use of the celebration rules under autocratic governments.

Leaving Despotism aside (in the beginning, cities are often too small to celebrate and anyway, Monarchy is not that far away), the mathematics of celebrating under Monarchy, Communism or Fundamentalism, described in an earlier post here, are convincing enough. It may take all of a city's trade to start the celebration, but once that is done, trade will (on average) double, so it is possible to have a continuous self-sustaining celebration with a luxury rate of 50 %. As soon as marketplaces have been built, it is possible to lower the rate below that point and have more trade available for taxes and science than without the celebration. As an added benefit, it is possible to put the entire non-luxury segment of trade into either taxes or science as the situation requires, thereby rendering the rate caps obsolete.

The reason why I find it difficult to earn this potential profit is my overall game situation when my civilization is ruled by an autocratic government. If I use Monarchy, Communism or Fundamentalism, it is either because I am expanding (on my original continent or overseas) or because I am at war. In both cases I often find myself with quite a number of cities that would require a much higher luxury rate to keep celebrating than my core cities. During expansion, the terrain around fringe cities cannot be developed quickly enough to allow trade production on every worked square. During wartime, I often reassign workers to the mines in frontline cities in order to build units (and end the war) more quickly.

This leaves me with the choice of setting the luxury rate either higher than necessary in my core cities or lower than necessary in my fringe cities. However, each trade arrow that is converted into luxuries without being both necessary and sufficient to keep the respective city celebrating is wasted. It is my impression from the games I have played that this waste of trade generally outweighs the 25 % - 50 % profit (depending on whether you have just a marketplace or a bank, too) that is theoretically associated with celebrations under autocratic governments.

I would very much like to use the powerful tool that the celebration rules have proven to be under representative governments in other game situations with similarly stunning effect, so please feel free to comment.

[Scouse Gits]

Your point is well made - but as long as you set your stall out appropriately the returns can be impressive - I favour Fundamentalist ICS and therefore set out to get happy Wonders and to build Mints (sorry some people call them Temples and Colosseums) with as many as 11 g in tithes from each of your core cities you can easily afford the multiplier improvements Marketplace, Bank, Stock Exchange it is quite common for me to be netting 2 to 4 thousand gold / turn - no improvement or Wonder (or AI civ )is too expensive - my trade routes (even minor local ones) are frequently in excess of 10 arrows/turn each celebrating in all bar a few really poxy cities is no problem.
My colleague SG(2) is a devout Communist and I'm sure he shall shortly post the glories of red tinted celebrating cities ...
Do try it - the celebrations are well worth it.

SG[1]

[War4ever]

wasnt' this posted before as a crutch for the weaker player

just kidding....there is no doubt that WLT*D's are very powerfull and if done correctly can bring your empire from middle of the pack to the front runner.....

you dont' even need a happy wonder to run these little fellas either....thats the beauty.....

[rah]

One last advantage of Pyramids. Your cities get to size three faster so they can celebrate. (which is real good when you're building on tough terrain) And if you don't have any happy wonders and your infrastructure is a little weak, you won't be celebrating for long. Then Pyramids will help. Or when you switch to Commie, the Pyramids will help.

It's interesting to read from Ming two years ago saying he never built it in a MP game. NOW he considers it a good thing to have.
Things continue to evolve.

RAH

*Crutch* Yeah, gotta love it. Guess I'm a little weak.

[geofelt]

I like the pyramids. If I have it, the ai doesn't, and can't grow as fast. Also, there are times when you may need to run a food shortage if you are being attacked. The granary provides a cushion of food which will keep those settlers from being disbanded.
As soon as I get SOL, I go to democracy, and set luxuries to 60% and WLT*. I keep it there so long as most cities keep expanding. I then change to fundamentalism or communism to build infrastructure(markets, aqueducts, and harbors) with no shield loss. When enough have been built, I repeat the process. Happiness is not a problem with fundy or commie. If I need science, I use commie, If I need $ I use fundy.

[Campo]

I'm missing something in the mechanics here and hope someone can clarify. What I'm reading is this:

1. Increase the luxury rate very high.
2. As a result, trade increases, making people even happier.
3. Lower the luxury rate.
4. High trade continues, promoting WLT*D even at lower luxury.

Is that correct? If so, I don't understand. Why doesn't trade diminish when you reduce the luxury rate, thereby reducing happiness and ending WLT*D?

BTW, I do use WLT*D, usually in Democracy for city growth. Typically I wait until I have HG and Mich's, then push luxuries to 40% or 50%. I don't recall prolonged celebration any lower than that.

[rah]

This is only for governments that aren't REP or DEMO

For the rest of the governments one of the bonuses for WLT*Ds is to get an the additional trade arrows as if you were at the next level of government. I.E. In monarchy, you would get the trade arrows as if you were in republic. Once you have started celebrating, your city is now reaping more trade arrows. AND will continue to untill it stops celebrating. A lower luxury % in this city will still reap the same number of trade arrows as before you started celebrating. Keeping the city celebrating. I hope that explains it.

RAH

Celebrating is a lot easier (and more prolonged with 3 good trade routes and marketplaces and banks in your cites)