Naval Strength

[George Garrett]

War4ever, I must disagree with you, as I did with Sieve Too, in another thread...musketeers, for me are the only units that the AI DOESN'T clobber...it seems to me that mine outperform my riflemen and Alpine troops even!...the AI ironclads, come sniffing around, and usually vanish when they smell musket-oil...true,during "hostilities",I've routinely placed a pair, fortified, usually behind city walls, and, if possible, coastal fortresses, but, then, isn't that according to Hoyle? (or von Clausewitch)

[klesh]

In my SP games, I love to have an overpowering Navy. Especially later in the game. Magellan's is a must because it never expires +2movement! I find that once you've got controll of the high seas, you'll never experience a sizeable invasioninto your soil.
I'll kick it off with frigates/galleon. But as soon as I get Electricity, I'll start my modern naval armada. Costal bombardment with a battleship is almost guarenteed to give you that city. Let the invasion begin there. AEGIS's are a must later. We all know about the AI's tendancy to use a bit of overkill with cruise-missles. BTW if you stack a vet. AEGIS with a battleship, which will take the brunt of the missile attack?

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See you next December in the Kremlin, Komrade, when the first snow falls... if you are still there...
[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited March 22, 2000).]

[My Wife Hates CIV]

So a good navy is a must... ok. Now, how about some tactics.

This is for anyone and everyone.

Do you send ships out alone? Do you form small (or large) battle groups? If a ship is damaged - do you limp home or repair at sea? How do you search for subs? Do you use subs? This could be an interesting thread.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

ok, case #1. green fleet is attacking. green transports are trying to land but must go through blue ships. of course green wouldnt know about the subs. how would you defend or attack?
http://www.i2k.com/~density/ships.jpg

case 2: blue battleships against green ships. again, subs would be hidden. would you attack blue battleships or run?
http://www.i2k.com/~density/ships2.jpg

case 3: same pic only green fleet has a bit more fire power - how does this change things?
http://www.i2k.com/~density/ships3.jpg


case #4: green against blue with some land. who has the advantages? what would you do for both?
http://www.i2k.com/~density/ships4.jpg


vet or not, how would that change things. not saying this is how you would start (as far as placement goes) - but, this is what you have. how does movement change things (if someone has better movement)?


[This message has been edited by My Wife Hates CIV (edited March 21, 2000).]

[Scouse Gits]

I think your question implies the answer - none, but just to be clear - How many cruise missiles on each sub?

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[mindseye]

Hmmm, if I was playing the green fleet, in most if not all these scenarios I would choose "hasty retreat" as soon as I saw the masts of those battleships on the horizon. When it comes to grappling with those behemoths, the best weapon is Mechanized Infantry. Sitting in a city behind a Coastal Fortification, of course.

Unless I had a very pressing need to lock horns with those battleships, "discretion is the better part of valor" would carry my day. In each of your scenarios. victory could only come, if at all, at the cost of most or all of the green vessels. Possible exception: in the first scenario, if the target coastline was close enough, the fast transports might be able to make a dash while the Aegii screen them. Otherwise, no way would I risk loaded transports in the vicinity of an enemy battlewagon.
[This message has been edited by mindseye (edited March 21, 2000).]

[poppawoppa]

I probably shouldn't even be commenting, since I have only built a few modern ships... but after saying that, I find that in the games I play (SP Diety RH Small world) that I can usually conquer the cities/civs on "my" continent, and then either on the east coast or the west coast there is one or more sites where my transports will be able to get across the ocean and unload my tanks or cavalry etc. With the two movement units, they can then head inland so they won't be blown away by enemy battleships. Or, if I have been able to get a spy over there I locate the fortresses and load up my Mech Inf and others into those fortified areas; they will easily defeat the destroyers and sometimes cruisers. And being in fortresses, only one is killed, leaving the rest of the stack to attack the next turn. If no spy has scouted out the land, I may put two engineers on board to do an instant fortress for the two movement units to hole up in.

The thing I rely on then, is taking the enemy cities, and forcing the disbanding of the naval units they have supported by the city I have just overrun. In a recent game, I had gotten several transports full of my tanks, etc. into a fortressed area outside of the city radius' of the enemy during the cease fire they offered when I captured one of the last cities on "my" continent. Then when I was ready to attack about 6 to 8 of their coastal and inland cities, I looked in the cheat file to see what their navy was.
They had 10 destroyers, 7 cruisers, 13 Aegis, 3 battleships and 6 submarines and 6 transports. When I overran 6 of the coastal and 2 inland cities, I looked again at the Civ defense advisor screen using the cheat.
Now they had 2 destroyers, 1 cruiser and 1 transport. All the rest had been lost to them by virtue of having no support when their home city was overrun by my loyal tanks and MI's. So at least in that game, I had no real reason to have to build a Navy. Good civing to all.

[Sparrowhawk]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by poppawoppa on 03-22-2000 12:46 AM</font> Then when I was ready to attack about 6 to 8 of their coastal and inland cities, I looked in the cheat file to see what their navy was. They had 10 destroyers, 7 cruisers, 13 Aegis, 3 battleships and 6 submarines and 6 transports. So at least in that game, I had no real reason to have to build a Navy. Good civing to all.

Ummm, I think there is a reason they call it the "cheat file". Do you really consider this an honest win? I'm amazed that you would do this but even more amazed you would so proudly admit to it. I suppose you point out that it was in SP but doesn't it defeat the purpose if you cheat to win. I would think that would take a lot of the excitement out of it? Oh well, to each his own, I just hope you don't try that in MP
[This message has been edited by Sparrowhawk (edited March 22, 2000).]

[War4ever]

i think he meant as a check to see if all the ships were from one or two cities.... if so he is correct to state that the ai builds its navies in one or two cities.... if not then he cheated but in all honesty ... who cares its his game to play

[klesh]

MWHC:

1.I'd have AEGIS scoping out the waters ahead, eventually flanking the subs. You'll lose 'em the next turn, so bring the others up from the hind. Advance the battleship diagonally SE so as to have him in range for the next turn, assisted by the extra AEGIS.

2. Head for Port! Flank speed ahead!

3.This indeed changes things...I'd fight only if I had a sizeable replacement fleet, or the ability to build one. I'd merge the fleet on the first turn, moving to whichever side is closer to home. Then, when the battleships come close, strike first with subs, AEGIS then regulation cruisers. I don't belive this battle could be a complete victory. I'd hope to kill 2 battleships, and wound the third.

4. Blue-battleship moves betwwen small island, attacks AEGIS 2nd turn. AEGIS move due west, engaging the subs, 2nd turn as well.
Green-Merge fleet to face battleship first at the waterway by little island. Looking to knock out the big one here, AEGIS is secondary.

Arrr Matey!

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!
[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited March 22, 2000).]

[Scouse Gits]

I’m interested that some of you guys think that a navy is a luxury! OK, on a small map, with a large landmass, there is little you can achieve by having a large fleet. However, on the larger maps, the navy is essential. Perhaps I am missing something, so please tell me a more efficient way to play on a large waterworld!

In answer to some of the questions raised by MWHC:

1) Warships can go out alone when I’m ahead in the naval techs. If nobody else has discovered steam engine the ironclad fears nothing. However, convoys are always provided for boats with caravans – barb protection mainly.
2) When other civs have equal research, I prefer warships to hunt in packs of three. The warship at the back of the pack will usually escort (stack) a boat (caravel/galleon/transport) with dips or spies. Intelligence is important when charting unknown lands.
3) Damaged vessels could take centuries to limp home. Better to bribe a city so repairs can be done where the action takes place.
4) Unless there is a compelling reason, I don’t build subs. Their movement is poor, their defence lousy, and they can’t attack troops on land. Most of the time the navy should be killing ground units, they only kill ships when another navy gets in the way!

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SG (2)

[Bohlen]

Yes, but what about VET subs? My experience has been that they are very effective against some of the bigger boys, especially when traveling in groups of 3 like your own naval forces. Combined with the fact that they are able to carry rocket and nuke units, invisible 50% of the time, & relatively inexpensive, I would think that any serious navy would be glad to have them.

[klesh]

The only problem with nukes in subs is because they are so expensive, and the AI sees missles in your ships (nuke or cruise), and subs are so weak defensively they almost always get killed by the AI pre-launch.

Take a good look when you've finished moving a sub with rockets in it. The sleeping missle is on the top of the stack, right in the middle of the water. Even though the AI ships shouldn't see the subs, their planes and warships certainly see the sleeping missile, and will kill it at all costs.

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

[My Wife Hates CIV]

I have, a number of times, been able to bring a sub right up to the AI coast line and drop in a number of nukes. Other ships, aegis, battle ships... get hit with countless cruise missiles. Are you sure the AI can see missiles on subs?? It seems like they can not - or am I just getting lucky?

[Scouse Gits]

Bohlen -Vet subs are fine, if they work well in your games – an attack of 15 must always be respected. My main reservation about subs is that they can only attack ships – not land units. Naval power is more about conquering cities and continents than sinking boats. From the dawn of the Ironclad Age onwards, my version of the naval conquest routine could be summed up as follows:

1) Pick an enemy. If the civ is still in Monarchy have the hunting group of warships kill one defender (no more - you don’t want to kill troops you will soon own) in two or three coastal towns. Wait a turn to see if any riot. (Martial Law broken) If they do – bribe them. With luck you should be able to establish a foothold on the territory. When you take over the city you will not be able to buy any units because of civil disorder. However, you can buy city walls (or any other city improvement) if none are present. For other forms of government blast away at the defenders and move in a boatload of troops.
2) Repeat this procedure for all the other coastal cities. With no ports – your enemy has no navy. In the meantime your navy moves on to the next opponent.
3) Don’t worry too much about the interior cities. They will fall in time. In many cases its worth keeping a few (particularly if republic or demo) for trading purposes. On many occasions I have kept a city alive for a repeating commodity to finance the war elsewhere.
4) Don’t delay in researching Espionage. Spies are vital as the game progresses. After Metallurgy is widely available, you must check out the ports for coastal fortresses, and note the ships that the city supports – so you have some expectation of enemy naval strength.
5) Target cities are always coastal capitals or places that have useful wonders.
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SG (2)