Flagrant Cheating by the AI

[finbar]

Benedetti - I'll have a damn hard look next time. It doesn't often happen anyway. Usually it's the AI monstering me and I'm damn sure they don't post messages to the AI version of this site (of which I'm sure there's one, somewhere, in another dimension) and grizzle about me. Or maybe they do.

CC - I suspect it's a case of the manual writers wanting to believe it's a fair test, etc. It is, until about 20,000 games later, and the human nouse has nutted out most things. That's why, hopefully, Civ 3, if it ever happens, will have a more advanced (or developed) AI. Until, 20,000 games later, human nouse nuts that one out, too.

I still think Steve Clark made good points very well. They're things we tend to forget.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

[Sieve Too]

You all forgot one of the biggest cheats: AI cities generate no pollution. The AI never builds Mass Transit, Solar or Recycling Plant. If you capture or bribe one of their large cities, you will often get a big pollution generator.

Another: AI has half of the Statue of Liberty, it can change gov'ts instantly w/o Anarchy.

Another: AI Democracies can declare war and can't be made to collapse.

[Steve Clark]

Sieve: Half of the SoL?

CC: I can assure you that the 'names' in the program are nothing more than variables (X,Y,A1,etc.). By using the rules.txt and some of the other files in the directory which lists city names, leaders, etc. All it does is read the file and populate the appropriate variable. That is why you can change names of everything (just as long as you don't change the order or its placement). The program does not care.

finbar is very correct about the manual writers. Typically, they are not the programmers or designers, but people who can effectively communicate instructions and to spin a good story about the game (the MGE manual is perhaps the best I have ever read). It all makes much more fun for the gamer, but don't fool yourself in thinking that the AI can think like a human or has such characteristics.

I apologize if my remarks are partonizing, it is not intentional. I've been playing strategy games since the 1980s as well as programming since then. The subject of AI in games is one of my pet topics and in a number of discussions, a sore point because people unfairly critize the AI for not being more than what it is.

By the way, in newer RTS games (which I don't play), the AI is more 'intelligent' in that it forces the AI to build like a human and only use the resources that are available (using the example of Age of Kings). The reason is that all units and cities are exposed so you can't fake it. It can have a multiplier (e.g., building 1.5x faster) to maintain competiveness at harder levels.

[Bohlen]

How's this for AI cheating...I was finishing up a game last night on a custom map that kept all civs from expanding too much. My fundy Celts were bribing cities as much as possible and took a Chinese city that shared a small island with the only 3 Aztec cities. The Aztec capital had 5 WOWs and I was building up a heavy supply of dips and military personnel to take it. The first cheat was when my wave of 8 dips took out most, if not all, of the capital's improvements, including the city walls. After a failed attempt to take the city by force, I began to restock my supply of dips and grunts so that I could try again in a few turns. A few turns passed and I investigated the capital to see what was up. In just a few turns, ALL of the improvements had been rebuilt, including city walls. The AI rebuilt 8 improvements in 5-6 turns!

Next came the most unfair AI tactic I've ever seen. The Japanese were intent on world domination and had bought an Aztec city just south of the Aztec capital during my attempt to take it by force. A few more turns passed and the Japanese bribed the Aztec capital! How could this be? Capitals can't be bought! I never received message that the capital had changed and was never given the option to buy it myself. Has anyone seen these two AI back stabbing techniques before?

I do agree with most of Steve's remarks on AI programming and what is needed to keep the game competitive at higher levels, but the total disregard for rules when it happens right in front of your eyes is very frustrating. AI irrigation on a square not adjacent to water and smaller production boxes is one thing, but the AI bribing an enemy capital is quite another.

[Bohlen]

Thanks for the tips, Scouse Git (2). I only wish I could have relied on a naval bombardment, but the city was not on a coast. That would have made a huge difference. I did have to hurry things up a bit...the turns remaining until 2020 were limited. Patience is a huge problem for me and it hurt me in this game as I went for it all a little too early.

When the Japanese took the capital, I had to save funds with the hopes that I could take it near the end, but still did not have enough gold.

5 WOWs in that city. Man, that hurt.

[C Chulainn]

Pollution ... I don't think that can be counted as the AI cheating, because pollution counts as a penalty to your score; it wouldn't do the AI civs any damage unless it got the point where it was starving their cities!

[Sten Sture]

Pollution also reduces the production of the square where it occurs to Despotism(?) government production.

(In the OCC games, pollution on a trade special is bad and pollution on a shield producing square that takes you down to 79 shields when you are building your spaceship is horrible!)

[rah]

That's why you keep two non-engineers in occ.
Problem solved. If you can bribe them early, they're cheap.

RAH

[Jim W]

In my case, the AI doesn't need to cheat. It just ties ten meg (the rough equivalent of one arm) behind it's back and goes to work with a snicker.

Actually, I've very seldom actually been wiped out, just never managed to get to AC by 2020.

JimW

[Scouse Gits]

Bohlen

I have never suffered cheating on that scale before. At least you can now buy the former Aztec capital from the Japanese.

If you have to use diplos to bring down the city walls (prefer naval bombardment or siege if possible) send one diplo to investigate the place so you have some facts. Assuming the city walls will be the last thing to be destroyed - you need one for each improvement (excluding palace), plus one for the sabotage of current production. I always think the AI doesn’t cheat as much if it knows you are monitoring it! This initial look at things may tell you to forget the plan for the present, as the defenders may have sufficient power without the city walls – saving you an unnecessary defeat.

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Scouse Git (2)

[johnmcd]

The AI in my game just invented space flight and plastics on one turn. I then suffered in silence as, on the same turn he built all his structurals and components and blew up engineers of mine with helicopters from nowhere.
[This message has been edited by johnmcd (edited December 16, 1999).]

[jpk]

For the human player pollution reduces shield, food, and trade production. None of these things happens to the AI.

I just figure that the AI plays by different rules than the human player. A giant advantage the human player has is that you are told when the AI is about to complete a Wonder. I find this to be a huge help.

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If you can not think of a good reason to build something other than a caravan, build a caravan!

[Sten Sture]

Hey, I've got a dip close to that AI city that is almost done building a WoW... what does this industial sabotage thing do???

And no matter what the turn order is, the human lead civ always completes their wonder first.

another chance to use the sig...

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If you can not think of a really good reason why you should build something other than a caravan, build a caravan. - jpk

[poppawoppa]

Regarding Pollution
In my current Diety game, I had a city that I was trying to get the most shields from, and let it mine some hills which gave extra shields, but also showed two (2) of the yellow triangle pollution signs. I paid it little attention since I have had cities with 6 to 8 for several turns and maybe then have gotten a polluted square. Here, wouldn't you know, the next turn, there was a polluted city square. As you know, I then have to put one or two engineers to work to clean it up, but for that time, there is a loss of shields and food etc.
It happened that during that turn, I investigated the city of Paris with 27 citizens. There was 24 pollution triangles in the city box, but not one indication of pollution in the area. So, the AI doesn't have to spend engineer time cleaning up after itself. Aggravating.

Then, I watched as the AI (which was well ahead of me during this game), struggled to build the Apollo. (HA HA). It lined up 10 cities in building this wonder. I sent a spy around in 1989 to see how the Wonder was coming. Well, Several cities had between 390 and 410 shields credited to the Apollo Wonder. Each city was generating between 14 and 35 shields per turn. Now, get this! The very next year 1990, I sent my spy around to those same cities to check again. And this time each city had 480 shields. I had gotten the message that the French were nearly done with the Apollo Wonder. The city of Besancon had 390 shields with a 14 shield excess production in 1989, and in 1990, the Wonder now had 480 shields. Thats 90 shields for a credit against the 14 shield production level.

Now, I must admit that this was offset some when in the 1991 turn, one city was listed as having completed the Apollo Wonder, and then each of the other 9 cities began to be shown as having completed a space ship part. So, assuming they all had above 480 credited shields, you might suppose that the AI would build the Modules which take 320 shields???? NOT!!! 6 cities completed SS Structurals worth 80 shields, and 2 cities completed SS Components, worth 160 shields. The 10th city must have switched to something else, cause I never got a notice of what it had built...... obviously, not a SS part.

One last CHEAT to report. The AI had just built all those SS parts etc. So, I went to each of those cities with my spy to see what else they were doing. Lo and behold, one of those cities had already completed 39 shields toward another SS Structural (with the city production of 24 shields).

When I complete anything, I have to assign a new task in the turn I complete, and so the shield box is empty until the turn after that one. Not so the AI, it already had shields credited to the box as soon as the current project was done.

Lastly, this AI civ put a city in the area north of my main continent area. As I first noticed it (because, as it happens, the entire map was now revealed due to Apollo), I sent a spy over to see what was going on. She found that it was empty, no defenders near by. But this is the interesting part, the city was established on river/grassland, and the center square was already generating 3 food, 1 shield, and 3 trade...with no engineering guys around to have irrigated or roaded that square. So, I waited around with my spy for the next turn to see how the barbs would do. They got close, but not in a position to attack, so I looked in the city again. WOW!! with 5 food, 2 shields, and 5 trade from the city square and the one worker, the city had already gotten 40 shields credited for the production of and Alpine Troop (to defend against the Barbs)...out of 2 shields. The food box now showed a surplus of 3 of the 20 needed to go to another citizen, so I know it was just 1 turn. It also already had a Cruise Missile in the troop Units Present box.

So it goes. It's now 2000 and the space ship they launched will be there in 2012. Unless, I take Paris first, and the city of Strausborg as well, since they have 2 Nuclear Missles there. Gotta get them out of the picture. I've built 3 myself (almost...at most another 3 turns to go.) So then maybe we will get into an all out Global Warming WAR event. We'll see what we see.

[Smash]

I just lost a game where the ai stole space flight,plastics,superconductor and fusion power on 1 turn then built a SS that was 1 year faster than my allready launched ship the next turn.They were still researching electricity.