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[DaveV]

Someone (I don't remember who) posted that if there is a third city on the path from the source city to the destination city, the road/railroad only needs to connect to that intervening city to obtain the bonus. My experience bears this out, so I side with Xin Yu.

[La Fayette]

(could not resist some 'clicking in Paris')

samson
I confess I was one of those who gave too much importance to the one time bonus. Your clear and complete explanations have convinced me of the strength of a well-thought continued trade route.
Thank you (BTW how many hours a day are you spending in your lab? it's amazing how many results you have brought here within a few weeks!).

ecthelion
The map you have chosen + your signature = you mention nowhere that you are joking.
If you are, you should tell us.
If you are not, this makes me very sad, since it looks really close to nazi propaganda.

[samson]

DaveV,

A city square is an automatic road/railroad. So yes, of course, if a third city lies on the direct path between two others it acts as a railroad and forms part of the bonus route.

But I don't believe you can get the full 100% bonus with only a partial rail route - which is how Xin Yu interpretted his experience. I offered another explanation, which definitely happens.

If you have an instance of getting the full 100% RR bonus with a partial railroad, I'd like to see it. This one isn't a matter of sides, opinions, or myths -- there is a demonstrable mechanism at work here. If I'm wrong, and I often am, show me.

samson

[samson]

La Fayette,

I am in a convalescence and this game helps to pass the time. It won't last forever, but while it does I'm enjoying puzzling this stuff out.

[DaveV]

samson - I've attached an MGE save game. The trade route from Ravenna to Sirmium has a value of 12; the return route has a value of 9. Rails run from Ravenna to the next nearest city, then it's road the rest of the way.

[samson]

"If I'm wrong, and I often am," ...

And this time I was. Sorry, DaveV and Xin Yu, you guys are right.

If a freight from city A is delivered to city C and city C is connected by rail to city B which lies on the would-be-rail-route between A and C, then the full 100% rail bonus is attained for that A-to-C route even if no connection at all (no road/no rail) exists between A and B.

This is very important for foreign city trade routes. It means you don't have to build a railroad across half the world to get the bonus. Just drop a city down 2 squares from a foreign city and build a one square railroad between them and voila, you get full 100% trade route bonus from your SSC to the foreign city from the short rail link. Astonishing!

This makes a foreign rail trade strategy very doable, not just a flukey one game occurance. Thanks.

samson

[Blaupanzer]

Originally posted by La Fayette

ecthelion
The map you have chosen + your signature = you mention nowhere that you are joking.
If you are, you should tell us.
If you are not, this makes me very sad, since it looks really close to nazi propaganda.

La Fayette,
I'm sure Ecthelion can defend himself, but there is nothing faintly close to Naziism in a map of pre-World War I Germany. I recognize the sensitivity that arises from the two wars, but Germany was an empire with roughly that map before Hitler and National Socialism were born. Naziism is so repulsive to most of us that I felt I should speak. This map should be no more repulsive than one of Rome or Napoleonic France to the nations now extant but then provinces of the conquerors. Note also the little grin in the signature.

[samson]

Thanks, DaveV, for the map.
Your last post came to me after I had already responded.
I've played with your map, too, and confirmed my findings.

If I cut all roads out of Sirmium it loses its 50% trade route bonus, but Ravenna retains its full 100% rail bonus. If I cut all roads beyond Cyrene, but make the Sirmium to Cyrene connection a rail, then Sirmium gets the 100% railroad bonus even though no connection at all exits from it to Ravenna.

This is actually very nice to know. It makes high bonus trade routes possible with a lot less road/rail work. We can build little "railway stations" around the world and pick up 100% trade bonuses.

samson

[samson]

Ooops. I got it backwards.
The "railway station" idea gives the 100% bonus to the foreign city's trade route, not to its home city.
Good for MP play with allies, not so good for SP.
Got to think about this some more.

[La Fayette]

Blaupanzer
OK. You tell it nicely.
But if I choose one day a map of Napoleonic France including Moscow as an avatar, I allow you (and anyone on this forum) to tell me very nasty words.
Even if we leave nazism aside, looking at that kind of maps has caused so much damage in Europe (and in fact is still at work in 'Yugoslavia') that I find it much wiser to refrain.

[solo]

samson,

I've had some time to go over the log of your remarkable game, and come away even more impressed with how quickly you are able to acquire science early in the game. Some items of note were:

1) Your first 31 earned advances were accomplished in 81 game turns for an average of 2.6 techs per turn.

2) The worst stretch was only 6 turns between earned techs.

3) Three times it took you 4 turns between earned techs.

4) This was all done before the railroad to Memphis was completed and the benefit derived from doing this, so I would have to conclude that Memphis was not such a major factor in the success of this game.

The first 6 earned techs came after just 2,2,3,2,2 and 3 turns of research each, quite an improvement over a typical start. I believe the keys to this accomplishment were:

1) Using gold specials to facilitate early 2-turn advances
2) Getting those first 4 cities down and operating on good trade specials very early, to sustain early science.

(By the way, how much use was overlapping SSC specials with helpers to you in this game?)

By this time (just 2850 BC!) you had trade and were switching to Republic. Now your SSC started growing and developing quickly, and this sustained the 2.6 average until Copernicus was ready, in 1550 BC. Every tech trade with the AI was at the opportune time. Deferring trades until they were necessary helped sustain this quick acquisition of early tech.

All this was accomplished just 5 turns after I founded my SSC in the 776 game. I watch and learn and perchance will adjust my early game strategy! Thanks for the detailed log. Beaker and science counts that you provided were especially useful and interesting to follow. A lot of micromanagement, as several of those advances were real squeekers, using every last available beaker!

It's safe to say you are not recovering from massive brain injuries, and that 396 is the new date to beat!

[samson]

Solo,

That's a pretty good analysis. And I agree with most of it, but you're underestimating the impact of the Memphis railroad trade routes. The rail bonus doubled the route trade from 60 to 120 arrows at its peak. That's 60 extra raw trade in a city with a 6X science multiplier. In other words, 360 beakers per turn at a cost of 3 caravans.

To get the same amount of science from local trade routes, even with rail connections (my original plan), would have taken 3 routes in 8 cities costing 24 caravans. The local routes would have been +20 arrows in the SSC but only +16 arrows each in the helper cities (no Superhighways). With no science improvements in the helpers, that's 48 science per city, which means 8 cities are needed with 3 routes each to match the effect of those +40 routes. Plus you have to build a lot more roads and railroads.

The Memphis routes pushed me into 1 turn/techs and sustained that rate for 27 turns. Without Memphis, I would have launched 500 years later for a landing in the 800s.

The first researched tech, Monarchy, took 4 turns because it was timed for a revolution-free year. It cost 18 beakers because I picked up Masonry from my attack on the Babylonians -- which may have been a mistake actually.

The key to early 2 and 3 turn techs under Despotism is two cities with trade specials. Gold is nice, but any 4 trade special will work - wine, spice, gems, rivered silk. Despotism knocks it down to 3 trade + 2 trade from a rivered city square for 5 trade per city which is 3 science. That gives your 2 turns to your first tech, 3 for next. That should get you to Monarchy with a couple of starting techs. Then you pick up the full trade from the specials and can get a few more quick techs.

Gold is nice for early science, but slows down city growth. I didn't get new cities founded as fast as some because of that. But I like to knock those first 19 acquired techs (the cheap ones) down as quickly as possible. And I hate to trade for techs until the 20th when the cost goes up. Trading for a 24 beaker tech is a waste if I can wait and take it later when it would have cost me 400+ beakers to research.

Gold. It's a fever. Once you see its power in the early game, it's hard to go without. This game had 4 gold in the area, 2 in one city radius. I built helper cities near those two gold so I could work them from either the SSC or the helper. This gave a lot of flexibility in matching beaker counts exactly, which meant optimizing growth for the SSC when the helpers could work the gold. That worked well. Thanks for the suggestion.

Copernicus as a first wonder in 1550BC was a little late I thought. By then I was struggling with 400+ beaker costs.

It was an enjoyable game. I learned things, made discoveries. I don't really know if I can match it. The thing I need to work on is getting some big overseas freight payoffs at the end for 2 techs/turn. And of course, more production and cash to build the ship sooner.

samson

[solo]

samson,

My point was how well you did BEFORE adding the Memphis benefits later in the game. An early game tech average of 2.6 is hard to beat.

Having a good supply of gold specials around makes a big difference early on, where just a few more beakers are all that's often needed to cut a turn of research. One nice trick with non-SSC gold is to found a city right on top, which gives an extra food and a quick mountain road to boot! I agree that the first few turns, city growth takes precedence over gold sitting.

With a Memphis, 4 trade specials without any gold would probably do fine. Spice is a great, but rare special. 4 trade and extra food for early growth, too! 2 wine and 2 wheat is really good, too.

With a nearby ally, chances of a Memphis are actually pretty good, since the AI love to tresspass and build sneaky little cities near the human player's. A great find, turning what is usually an irritation into a very substantial benefit!

[samson]

On a small map, both gold and spice are much less rare than on larger maps. There's a slightly higher concentration of specials but also less grassland, lots of mountains.

No real luck yet on new start to try. I had a 3-gold/1-buffalo site centered on a plains square, which would make it awful hard to grow the city. Another start with gold/wine/silk/buffalo on a river and several additional gold nearby. And a third with gold/wine/silk/coal on a river and a second city site near it with 17 rivers, pheasant and wine.

Yeah, the Memphis trick was sweet. Don't know how many times I've manuevered to keep intruders out when I could have leveraged their little cities for a whopping big trade boost.

[markusf]

Send me your saved game, i want to see the map, + use the same map to play on.

flames@unforgettable.com


I will also modify my auto save program to pick up single player games, and not just multiplayer.