396 Ad

[samson]

Deity, 7 civs, raging hoards, small map, playing as Americans.

A size16 SSC plus eight size3 helper cities.

1550 BC COPERNICUS
750 COLOSSUS
525 SHAKESPEARE
275 ISAAC NEWTON
225 Superhighways
1 AD Flight
140 Space Flight
160 APOLLO
360 Launch 15-1-1-1-1-1 spaceship
396 Arrive AC

From the time INU was built until the end of the game I got 1 turn advances.
At its peak, just before the discovering of Flight, the SSC had 238 trade arrows
with 3 routes of 40 each, producing 1428 beakers at 100% science.

samson

[Scouse Gits]

Amazing result! Many congratulations.

Looking forward to reading the detailed log and notes on your strategy to place in the GL .....are you sure that date has not lost a "1" at the start?

Could you send me your 4000BC save?
git2@scousers.net

-----------

SG(2)

[La Fayette]

samson
It's a pity Mark G et alien did not give us any possibility to print GOLDEN CAPITAL LETTERS.
Your forthcoming log sure deserves them.

[Scouse Gits]

Wow!

[Paul]

Wow, Samson, well done.

[DaveV]

Amazing! I'd been considering cranking up an ICS style fast landing game, but I can't imagine beating this result. Thanks for saving me the time and effort .

[samson]

Thanks, all.

I didn't keep a log. I wasn't expecting this to be a breakthrough game, just another test of the strategy that's been evolving on the early landing thread. I guess I can construct one -- I kept saves after every turn for analysis. But here's the key strategic element:

The intended strategy was to set up domestic trade routes from all helper cities into the SSC. The focus of trade was to be on arrows, not bonuses. Ala DaveV, I was going to build roads and rail between cities to get the 50% road and railroad bumps for the routes. But the Egyptians changed all that.

Early in the game, they set down Memphis 3 squares from my SSC. I sent in an early caravan and got a +6 trade route. I wanted the road bonus for this route so I prioritized Bridge Building (they were camped at the edge of my river system.) When I got all the bridges down the route bumped to +9. By then I had 3 routes to that city and Colossus.

Next I went for Railroad and converted the roads to rail. This bumped the routes to +12. So, in essence, these were +3 routes multiplied 4X by cumulative 100% (foreign), 50% (road) and 50% (rail) modifiers.

Then came Shakespeare's and the We Love! expansion up to a size 16 city, at which point the SSC ran out of food -- I had 3 settlers and an engineer at work, but still couldn't improve the land fast enough. The size of the city ran each of those routes up to +22, contributing 66 arrows to a total trade of 142. With the INU build, I started getting one turn advances and rushed forward to Automobile.

Building Superhighways added another 50% bonus to the trade routes taking them to +33 each. At this point I realized I had neglected to build roads on my specials and so their arrows were not being boosted by Superhighways. When I got that done the trade routes were at +40. This meant 120 of the 238 arrows in the city were from trade routes. The highest routes I can remember ever having before were about +22.

Memphis was a size 5 city built on, and surrounded by, plains with access to only 2 rivers and one ocean for natural trade. Yet as a road/rail partner to the SSC, it contributed half of the total trade in that city. My SSCs have always ended up just a bit short of 1 turn advances. With the Memphis routes in this game, they had more than enough to provide 1 turn advances for the last 20 techs I needed.

After building Superhighways (in 200BC), I realized Space Flight was only about 15 turns away, and Fusion Power possibly 5 turns after that. I was already in the end game. So I never got to try out the domestic trade route idea. I only got 3 or 4 domestic routes going before I started hoarding caravans for the SS.

Another stroke of luck with Memphis - 2 of its commodities, Dye and Beads, were ones that the SSC supplied. And Memphis was a repeat demand city, they could never get enough Dye and Beads (must have been a bunch of hippies living there.)
And the SSC often had Dye available for supply, so I was able to run a number of freights into Memphis for 400+ gold when I was strapped for cash.

In the end, I had Fusion Power in 300AD but wasn't able to launch until 3 turns later, the usually late game scramble - selling off improvements, disbanding NON units, begging cash from allies, etc. Next time, I have got to get my production capacity up.

The road/rail connection to a foreign city from the SSC was the key strategic element in this game, it allowed that long string of 1 turn end game advances. I believe this has implications for OCC play as well. A 1000AD OCC landing may well be within reach using this technique.

The most satisfying thing about this discovery, is that it reduces the importance of having a perfect SSC location. I think with some further refinement an approach that combines an OCC-style SSC, road/rail routes to a foreign city, domestic routes, and some overseas high-bonus freights could regularly secure pre-500AD landings. Actually, I have found the discovery and development of a strategy of early landings more rewarding than merely setting a record. Even the wrong turns, like the STC idea, were fun.

samson

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by samson
Another stroke of luck with Memphis - 2 of its commodities, Dye and Beads, were ones that the SSC supplied. And Memphis was a repeat demand city, they could never get enough Dye and Beads (must have been a bunch of hippies living there.)
And the SSC often had Dye available for supply, so I was able to run a number of freights into Memphis for 400+ gold when I was strapped for cash.

The road/rail connection to a foreign city from the SSC was the key strategic element in this game,
samson

It won't be a stroke of luck if we all look for it from now on. Adam Smith named it 'repeated commodity' and used it a lot (so did I ), but it seems that you have brought it to some kind of perfection (until someone discovers an even more performing method ).
The question I'm now asking myself reading you is about the location of Memphis:
Is it more performing to choose an island city (getting the 2 continents bonus all the way) or a city like Memphis (starting with roads, then getting railroads, then motorways)?

(solo and you are really dragging me from ww2 and Rome scenarios; make me feel like reopening my lab )

[samson]

Here's the game log, constructed from saves. A bit sketchy towards the end, I think I missed a few caravan deliveries.

The earliest save I found was 3800BC, so before that is from memory.

Starting techs: Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws

4000 Settler1 tips hut-horseman, horse moves W finds river, settler2 moves E.
3950 Horse tips hut-chariot, chariot moves N on river find Babylonians in a great location.
Babylonians destroyed-Masonry. settler1 moves W to river, settler2 moves E finds river.
3900 Horse goes S, chariot N, settler1 on site, settler2 pops hut-archer, finds 2 gold site.
3850 Washington(2 gold, silk, wheat) founded by settler2. New York (gold, wheat) founded.
3800 Archer tips hut-nomads (this hut was on a plains square, but quite close to Washington)
3750 Researching Monarchy (18 beakers) - workers set to time discovery for next oedo year.
3700 Nomad founds Atlanta (wine, 3 rivers, shared gold with W). Horse tips mountain hut-Nomad.
I got 3 Nomads in this game, using the first two to found early cities.
3650 Monarchy, MONARCHY. Researching Writing (24 beakers). workers set for 12 beakers.
Chariot tips hut-Advanced tribe, Chicago - lousy site.
3600 W-warrior
3550 Writing, researching Currency (36 beakers) science-12. NY-warrior. Nomad founds SF(gold, whale, buffalo)
3450 A-warrior. Egyptians-give all techs, alliance.
3400 Currency, researching Mapmaking (40 beakers) science-20. Mongols-give all techs, peace.
Archer tips hut for Nomad. C-warrior. NY-size2
3350 SF-warrior
3300 Mapmaking, researching Literacy (48 beakers) science-24. W-size2.Mapmaking to all, sharemaps.
3250 Zulus-give Monarchy, Writing, peace. hut-50g
3200 Literacy, researching Trade (63 beakers), science-21. Barbarians land near SF.
3050 Trade, researching Republic (81 beakers), science-21. W-library. C-size2
2850 Republic, REPUBLIC. Researching Construction (90 beakers), science-35. SF-size2. hut-Mysticism.
Republic & Trade to all (all techs to Mongols, we are SUPREME)
2800 W-temple, NY-settler (disorder), C-settler.
2750 W-size3. Chariot tips hut-Advanced tribe-Buffalo(wine).
2700 Construction, researching Mathematics (99 beakers), science-38. archer tips hut-horseman
2650 W-WeLove! Barb leader-150g
2600 W-size4, SF-settler. Egyptians found Memphis near Washington.
2550 Mathematics, researching Astronomy (120 beakers) science-33. W-S5. St. Louis founded (C)
2500 W-S6. Barbs appear near Buffalo.
2450 Barbs land near NY. W-WL! ends. hut-Warrior Code.
2400 Astronomy, researcing Iron Working (154 beakers), science-70. W-hides. Detroit founded (NY)
2350 Hides to Memphis (D)-80g.
2300 Iron Working, researching Bridge Building (165 beakers), science-77. A-hides. B-phalanx
barb leader-150g. French-give Republic, Writing, Trade, peace, sharemaps.
2200 Bridge Building, researching Philosophy (192 beakers), science-77.
2150 W-food caravan. SL-temple
2100 Philosophy, University, researching Medicine (216 beakers), science-68. B-S2 (disorder), SL-S2
2050 barb leader-150g, B-temple.
2000 Chicago (disbanded) builds settler (SL). D-temple, S2
1950 Medicine. A-food caravan
1900 W-food. New Orleans(whale, buffalo) founded (SF). hut-50g
1800 Theory of Gravity. Carthaginians-trade for Horseriding & Wheel, peace, sharemaps. A-S3 (disorder)
1700 Romans-give a bunch of techs, peace. French-trade for Banking.
1650 Researching Engineering (437 beakers), science-73. D-food caravan.
1600 W-food, SL-food. Science-92.
1550 W-COPERNICUS, science-127.
1500 Engineering, researching Invention (456 beakers) science-114.
1350 Invention, researching Democracy (475 beakers), science-71. NO-size2 (disorder)
1300 W-Dye, WeLove!
1250 W-size7. Dye to Memphis (D), 72gold. D-food. NY-size3
1200 W-Wl! ends. NY-temple, B-settler, A-temple, NO-temple.
1150 Democracy, researching Chemistry (513 beakers) science-160. W-Dye. Egyptians-trade for Seafaring
1100 Revolution! Anarchy, demand tribute from all-300gold.
1050 MONARCHY-demand tribute-100g, E-50g(gift) DEMOCRACY. W-University. D-size3
1000 W-marketplace.
975 Chemistry. SF-caravan. Dye to Thebes, 68 gold, 3rd route established.
950 SL-caravan, NO-caravan.
925 Navigation. D-caravan
900 NY-caravan, A-caravan
875 W-caravan, SL-size3
850 Physics.
825 B-caravan
800 Sanitation. Alliance with French-50g, war with Romans.
750 Washington-COLOSSUS. science-305
725 Steam Engine. SF-caravan, D-caravan, NO-caravan.
700 W-Copper. Romans-cease fire.
675 Railroad. Copper to Memphis, 102g, three +9 routes.
650 Industrialization, reseaching Magnetism (646 beakers) science-324.
600 Magnetism. Caravans-NY,A,SL.
575 D-Caravan. Egyptians-trade for Economics.
550 W-aqueduct. SF,NO-caravans.
525 Corporation. Washington-SHAKESPEARE, WeLove! F-50g, E-50g
500 W-size8 SF-size3
475 Gunpowder. W-S9. Baltimore founded (Buf)
450 W-S10
425 Explosives. W-S11
400 W-S12. Trade for Pottery(to clear tech tree)Freights-NY,A,D,SF,NO
375 Metallurgy. W-sewer system, S13. B-freight
350 Refining. W-S14
325 W-S15
300 Electricity. W-S16. Railroad to Memphis completed, 3 trade routes +22.
275 Washington-NEWTON's, WL! ends. Combustion. NO-Cloth to Washington, 112g.
250 Steel. B-Coal to Washington, 110g. NO-Copper to Washington, 110g.
225 Automobile.
200 Feudalism. W-Superhighways, trade routes +33 each. Science-998 (at 80%)
Balt-temple, size2. SF-Silver, SL-Copper.
175 Mass Production. A-Coal to Wash.
150 Chivalry. W-Bank. Freights-D, NO, NY
125 Conscription. Buf-freight.
100 Electronics. W-Factory. Freight-SF,Balt
75 Atomic Theory. Freight-A,SL
50 Leadership. Freight-NY,D,NO
25 Tactics. W-Hydro Plant. Buff-freight
1AD Machine Tools. Freight-NY,A,SF,SL,Balt
20 Flight. Freight-W,D,NO
40 Miniaturization. Freight-NY,Buff
60 Computers. Freight-W,A,SF,SL,Balt.
80 Radio. W-Research Lab. Freight-NY,D,NO Barbs near Atlanta
100 Advanced Flight. Buf-freight.
120 Rocketry. A-Cavalry. Barb leader-150g. Trade for Communism (to clear tech tree)
140 SPACE FLIGHT. Freights-NY,SF, SL.
160 Plastics. W-APOLLO. Balt-freight
180 Mobile Warfare.
200 Nuclear Fission. 2 structurals, 2 components
220 Nuclear Power.
240 Laser. 4 structurals.
260 Polytheism. 1 structural
280 Superconductor. 1 structural
300 Fusion Power. 1 module
320 2 structurals
340 2 modules. 2 structurals.
360 3 structurals. Launch 15-1-1-1-1-1.
...
396 Arrive AC.


Lafayette,

I always thought you got the best trade routes from cities on a different continent,
but now I think otherwise. I've never seen +40 routes before.
Bonuses pay better from second-continent cities, but I think the routes
are better with road/rail connections.

samson

[Jaguar]

Samson:
I once railroaded myself to an AI city for trade, but in my game the AI used the railroad as a spy superhighway and stole techs by the dozens. Did you have that problem?

[samson]

Dragon,

Nope.
Besides, I don't care if they steal techs -
saves me the trouble of giving them away.

[Jaguar]

Well this was when I liked being the purple civ, and i forgot to mention that they sabotaged later in the game.

[Ribannah]

Does anyone know if the (rail)road effect on trade routes is supposed to work in MGE?
I tried this same strategy a while ago, but nothing happened to my arrows from trade routes when my settlers finished the road and later the railroad. It was still helpful for delivering caravans and freight - as long as noone stepped on the line - but it was quite disappointing after all the hard work.

[samson]

Ribannah,

Yes, it works on MGE.
The problem with the road/rail bonus is that you can't just connect the two cities anywhichway.
There seems to be a particular route that must be used. If the two cities are in a direct diamond line,
that is the path that works. If they are skewed or if there are obstacles, it's often unclear which path will work.
I'm doing some testing to see if there is a consistent principle involved.

SGs, Paul, DaveV, LaFayette -

thanks again for your comments. It's been great having so many knowledgeable persons here to learn from.

samson

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Amazing results you guys are getting! Most of us are happy to reach AC before 1900...

Were the helper cities primarily camel stud farms, or did they get developed in any way? I think I'll try an early (relatively speaking) landing game, it sounds like fun.