Saturday Night (USA) Diplo Game

[deity]

Captain Deiticus invades Southern India!

OOC - a longer post later, but...

Year 1710 AD

Southern Aztec empire in ruins.

Offer of peace made to return Aztec empire IF all of SA was returned to Berzerker along with other reparations. No replies...

1720 AD

Aztecs and Carts reply with a counter offensive. Much better than expected. Makeozacitl is a brilliant fighter but not so good on defending his poor citizens.

Some military mistakes were made on both sides but THE DEITIANS recovered the old Aztec capital and look set to sweep across Europe with artillery and Infantry... unless peace accords are discussed...

[CANNON FODDER]

In our last 2 sessions, Makeo and Deity have demonstated remarkable prowess with their Civ2 offensive tactics. Kudos to both! Next session will be very interesting, our alliance has basically 3 choices:

1) Throw the dice 1 more time

2)Surrender

3)Negotiate a settlement

I have no idea at this time what course our alliance will take. I will admit that my global strategy has failed ( although it was not excecuted exactly as I had planned) primarily because I severely underestimated the speed and efficiency of Deity's mobilization.

I think that the outcome of this game was almost pre-destined from the both the map and our starting locations. I also agree with Berzerkers ideas regarding restrictions on alliances so I thought that I might post a few suggestions to perhaps enhance future diplogames ( or even MP games in general).

1)Large Map...a larger map inhibits the effects of military options as distances become greater. A large map also allows building of more cities for each civ. Most of us only had 13-14 cities this game so the loss of 2 or 3 cities becomes catastrophic. If we each had 20-25 cities losing a city would not nearly be so critical.

2) Use a random or non-world map. Everyone with a rudimentary knowledge of geography knows where all the land masses extend to and where the chokepoints are. I was basically boxed into my current location by 3850 BC. I knew at that time who my probable allies and enemies would be. The game unfolded almost exactly as I had expected. Their was very little diplomatic decision making to be had. Besides, almost no one is using historical city names so why have a known map.

3)Restrictions on alliances....Berz had some good ideas

4) Restictions on tech trading...this is probably more important than #3. The whole world divided into 2 tribes/alliances or probably better stated...2 tech trading groups. Each group was racing for tech superiority/Nukes/AC. My suggestion...each player could trade 1 tech with every other player once every 1000 years(or maybe 2000 years). This alone would reduce the advantages/effectiveness of alliances and force players to explore the world, meet all the other players, and do business with those they would normally not do business with or they would also be hurting themselves.

5)Restrictions On DoW's. This was tried in earlier diplogames, where a player needed to declare war on the turn before they actually attacked.

[Frank Johnson]

Yeah these things are true, but the idea behind the smaller map was to avoid alot of the lag, long turns, etc. That plauge the larger games. A none world map might help, but if you rely on the AI to place civs, then you can get the horrible starting locations too and have to keep restarting untill there's a "clean start" with no techs or bonus settlers.

The main thing I'd do to my map is disconnect spain with africa enitrely

[deity]

Hey, thanks fodder!

Now, when are you going to answer ozzy's question?!!

Actually, Makeo is my old sparring partner. I played my first online game with him and learnt heaps about war. He still needs to work on his defence

You guys really shouldn't throw in the towel though.
Even as a diplo game gone slightly off the rails it's an incredibly interesting game and worth perservering. Berzerker has hung in there with limited cities; and you can never know when a game is really won. The previous week there were rumblings that the Pacific Alliance was cactus in 1710 AD and now in 1720 AD the Western Alliance are considering surrender as an option!! I know one thing about this wonderful game and that is it's not over till it's over!! I've made comebacks and seen others make comebacks from hopeless situations; but yours is strong and your strategic planning may yet prove to be sound. Besides, Makeo hasn't seen the Loser Video yet!

I don't think the game outcome was pre-destined BTW.
Berz and Winz may have formed their own alliance and betrayals are always possible, but unlikely I guess.

----

I agree with Dang. This pak was well set up to allow for a relatively quick game. Even my longest turns are 20 mins or so. In HOTW2 my turns could take an hour with up to 300 units and 50+ cities... This modpak keeps city numbers down and thus unit numbers. Maybe the next game could allow about 20 cities each but any more would bog us down again I think.

[Makeo]

i'm going out to dinner tonight so unlikely to be able to make it.

[Frank Johnson]

After a turn or so it won't make that much of a difference.

[deity]

We need a sub or two in 3 hours time....

It starts on Makeo's turn so it would be good to get a sub but maybe not critical since his civ is on the verge of collapse. The AI could play his remaining turns I guess.

Hydey is a worry though - not seen him online for over a week becuase of that truck that drove through his Cable connection! We may need a sub for him too. Prom, will you be around since you so kindly subbed for Hydey last week?

[Prometheus]

I should be around if you need a sub for Hydey.

[CANNON FODDER]

whats the point

No Makeo.....No Hydey.....stick a fork in this game...its done. Your alliance won (as we all knew you would 5000 years ago). Congrats......

Its a good thing anyway...Im going on vacation and I will be out of town the next 2 weekends. I will be online today at the normal time....maybe we can discuss how we want to set the next game up(assuming everyone wants to start another game). But Makeo has a good idea...Im going out to dinner tonight too!

[Frank Johnson]

I dont know about you, but when my capital was burning, I didnt feel so confedant in victory......needless to mention SA burning to the ground.......ugggggg.

[deity]

Re: whats the point

Originally posted by CANNON FODDER
No Makeo.....No Hydey.....stick a fork in this game...its done. Your alliance won (as we all knew you would 5000 years ago). Congrats......

Its a good thing anyway...Im going on vacation and I will be out of town the next 2 weekends. I will be online today at the normal time....maybe we can discuss how we want to set the next game up(assuming everyone wants to start another game). But Makeo has a good idea...Im going out to dinner tonight too!

What's the point in living?

This really spoils the fun. I would NEVER surrender. Why would one of the strongest alliances at Apolyton surrender??
[Fodder (Nappy...?) + Makeo + Hydey]

Why did you all know 5000 years ago that you would lose?
I didn't. Until my turn in 1710 everyone thought that our Pacific Alliance was toast. Berz was crippled, Dang was about to be gang banged and Winz was no 7 in the game...

Why are we analysing this as one side versus the other?

This is simply a phase in a diplo game where World War has erupted in the 16/1700's.... things can change as they have in other games.

There is much more to civ than this!

I guess it's just a few more scalps for the drake nursery

j/j

[deity]

Look Nappy, doesn't matter how you put it - YOU Quit!

Sorry, you are a really nice guy Nappy (fodder) but I still need to speak my mind on this matter. I'm really disappointed in the extreme.

You might get a bit annoyed but I'm going to quote a few icq's you sent me

"Deity....u cant be serious....drop all the rhetoric and propaganda for just a sec....Makeo is destoyed, Hydey deserted us, and Im still re-building from the sneak attack on me.....what would be the point of continuing the game other than to rub it in our faces???????????????"

It's all ultimately in good fun and remember the thing about me is that I'm a complete character player - I assume a part in a play when I'm online, not just IN the civ game.... eg, I drop comments in icq as strategic mis-information related to a game but you can still glean my real personalty, of course.

[deity]

And from Makeo...

he quit?* its still evenly balanced game. i think i'm done for but hydey and africans are still a force. i can't play today though

* code for Nappy surrendered

You all know the game should have gone on, even if Makeo had gotten wiped out.

I think many MP players are missing out on the braod spectrum of challenges that civ offers. It's not just super growth, super trade, strong alliances or perfect land. It's about everything that's been factored into the game and like history ANYTHING can and does happen.

What if Berzerker quit, or Dang quit in 1700?
You would never have known about 1710AD!

I rest my case....

[deity]

You can't shut me up now!

In fact, why don't we play on each others side Nappy?

I'll take over the Carts, you take over THE DEITIANS?

How about that?

[OzzyKP]

My respect to Deity for trying to inject some diplo into this game. I hope it works, but I am not holding my breath. Everyone has their own criteria for what makes a diplogame a success. In my mind what makes or breaks a game is the players in it. This game had some players with Diplo experience: Deity, Berz, and Frank. But the rest (to my knowledge) haven't played diplo and are very used to the super growth then destroy model.

Newbies are always good to bring into the game, but they shouldn't be the majority, nor should they just be dropped in the game without a proper explanation of how exactly a diplogame is unique.

I know I have been rather critical about this game, and I swear it has nothing to do with my getting kicked out. No sweat. It just never gave me that feel, from the first session I never got a diplo-feel, and by looking at the player list pre-game I didn't expect it to show much promise.

But my critique aside, I do suggest that if people want to give diplogaming an honest chance then don't walk away from this game. Put your faith in the vets, let them guide you. What Deity says is true. Diplo games are fun because things are never clear. There is always the uncertainty of real life and real situations. (Wouldn't the world be surprized if Deity's conquering army turns on Frank?)

Ah well. Good luck guys. I hope things work out. Keep an eye on HOTW3, i hope our game works out too. I'm waiting for our 3rd session to start right now.