Arii, Nappy, Markus

[arii]

Was a good game, but unfortunately I was out of the picture very early on due to techs from hutt, bad land and barbs.
Congrat. to Nappy for kicking our butts.
My feelings about the changes:
I like the changes on the wonders since it tends to give the players that do not get the key wonders other options (there is a life after mike).
The no trade/no tech steal was a pain since 1 player took off and could not be caught up. We need to come up with something better to balance the game.
Regarding the tech tree change, I did not like it. The game is already long enough. The changes made it even longer and favored the frontrunner civ. I would prefere 4-5 sessions and be done with a game.
Don't really have an opinion about the unit changes since I did not get to use them. By the way the marines still suck with a firepower of 2.

[markusf]

I did pretty well for only having 3 cities at 1300 bc nappy had 9 at this time. I could have destroyed nappys mainland but there wouldn't have been enough time to launch an assult on his ocean islands etc. So killing him would have been close to impossible. Actually now that i think about it, the mass paradigm was double so the fastest ship takes 8 turns.
I think we need a couple of more changes,

1. Tech trading should be allowed or the GL should be banned.
2. More end game techs are needed.
3. proper unit graphics.
4. Increase the mass paradigm again. THis means the fastest ship takes 16 years?
5. artillery ignors city walls currently, should be taken off?
6. A very expensive Mobile SAM unit, same cost as a battleship ?


I say we try this again, with a way better map this time. me and arrii got really screwed over by barbs and land.

[cavebear]

Hi guys -

I'm sorry the map wasn't satisfactory. I wonder if the one I sent was really the one used? I mean, I wonder if the civs started where I expected them to, and if the terrain stayed as I designed it.

As I was requested, I made a small map with a medium-sized single continent capable of supporting about 30 cities. There was a desert in the center, and the civs were equally spaced around it with ample fertile areas on the outlying areas on which to build.

If that is not the map on which you played, then something must have gotten randomized along the way. I made it raging hordes because many top players complain if there are not barbarians to capture for the ransom value (and no one offerred a preference in that regard).

Other possibilities:

1. I assumed 30 cities total; perhaps you meant 30 cities each.
2. Your idea of "small" world may have been different than the map editor.
3. You may have expected a different ratio of land/water.

These are all easily changed. I feel badly that you did not find the map to your satisfaction, and I would like a chance to set things right. I really enjoy making maps to the exact purpose requested and the apparent failure of this one bothers me.

If you have more specific guidelines in your requirements, I would like to know of them so as to design a more suitable map for a future game.

[arii]

This is the map we used. My concern was that 2 players started with a whale, the other 2 with a fish. Guess who the top 2 civs were and who built the wonders first. This is a huge difference early in the game.
My mistake was that I tried to expand towards the other civs to claim land and ended up with desert cities for my first few cities instaed of building towards the outside.

[Nap Bonaparte]

Cavebear....thanx again for your map. It was actually a pretty good map(however it probably wasnt exactly balanced like your tournament maps were). Yes I started with a whale in my 1st city radius(I have no idea what the other players had). Among equal players a single whale could make a huge difference in the game. But I think that Markus and Arii expanded towards the center of the continent as fast as possible(to try to control as much land area as possible) and ended up with a lot of early desert cities so they were overwhelmed by our productivity. It was mainly a matter of expanding in the wrong direction. In addition, you told us exactly what kind of map you were making....ie all 4 players on the same land mass with numerous offshore islands for expansion. Berz and I went for early mapmaking and were the only ones to colonize the islands. Fully 1/3 of my 39 cities were offshore. Consequently, Berz and I had the largest civs by far. I think that my early build of GL destabilized the game with regards to techs...gave me 5-6 extra techs by 500 AD. GL is an awesome underated Wonder in a 4 equal player game. Maybe the next map you you could start us on seperate land masses and force everyone to go for early mapmaking. Thanx again and keep up the good work!

[cavebear]

I screwed up!

I have just re-examined the map I sent Ari, and I am very embarassed. The only thing I can imagine is that I must have re-set the resource seed factor somehow. The original map had everyone with one whale in sight to start and equal other resources within reach. As sent, 2 players had whales, 1 had fish, and one had NOTHING.

That was completely unfair, and against all my map-making principles. I apologize. It is never right that the map itself should determine the outcome of a game, and that was clearly the case with this one!

As for the desert though, that "opportunity to fail" was intended. There were several directions for each Civ to go, and the center of the map was not the best one. I had envisioned that as a sort of military campaigning area, but I also had in mind that a wise player would draw back from building in such inhospitible territory. LOL!

Anyway, I have created a new map. It corrects the errors of the previous one, it is completely different, the starts are equal, there is no desert, and the barbs are roving only. All units move by standard rules. It should be most satisfactory in all ways.

I'm sending it to Ari...

[markusf]

Like i said i had 3 cities by 1000 bc ish. I lost my first 3!!! cities to barbs and got no advanced tribes or techs from huts. No amount of expansion in that game could make up for the loss of tech. I know arri had similar problems on his side of the map, which basically resulted in nappy taking a 10-15 tech lead and all the wonders.

[strategicking]

How bored I am reading the ramblings of a game being set up by three people so full of themselves. To play such a ****ty game as civ 2.