History of the World . . .

[Prometheus]

Out of Character: I agree with Chris; no one should be taking any of this personally after all its just a game.

IC:

The Chinese Empire is outraged, how can we recognize this claim if it goes against our previous Agreement. Once again I will respond if you attempt to cross the Mississippi or the Rio Grande you will be attacked. And you might win but you will have to drive the Chinese off the New World all together. For as long as you decide to settle in our territory you will be our enemy, you talk about not a cause for war but you destroy our previous agreement and are threatening to violate Chinese Territory.

We ask the nations of the world not to recognize this claim not only for our sake but for your sake as well, already the Adriatic have more cities than anyone except the Mongols, and better land at that. Now they want a good portion of our land, how long will it be until they decide they want to make the Mediterranean an Adriatic Lake, how long till they decide that Greenland is proper territory of Europe, how long till they decide that all of North America is theirs for the taking. I ask the World to support the Chinese in this issue it is evident that the Adriatic have gone power hungry. We have all heard the words the Adriatic have spoken in the past how not to settle on there land and there racist comments toward the African Nations long ago; if they persist in this arrangement no nation will be able to stop them and they will even surpass the powerful Zulu’s.

We once again ask the Adriatic Empire to recognize our claims, everything west of the Mississippi and north of the Rio Grande including Baja California.

[The Capo]

Statement from King Ferdinand of Habsburg to the Various Nations in response to the statement from Emperor (?) Prometheus...

As time has passed the true colors of the Chinese have shown through the veil they once wore. This is a stunningly sad tale; for thousands of years they have been subjected to vassalage by their neighbors. Sine the dawn of time they were surrounded and subjegated by the powerful Mongolian Khan War4Ever. They played an important, yet impotent role in the development of the Americas. Now they have threatened war against the States of the Adriatic League.

I think everybody realizes what is occuring here, let's not sugar coat the obvious or fight a war of words, it will get us nowhere. The issues at hand are territorial claims. Nothing more and nothing less. Thousands of years ago the Australians made a brash claim for their allies the Chinese, it was at this point, and after lengthly discussion that the King Lorenzo D'Medici agreed to honor these claims. It was understood that the Chinese would NEED this territory to expand after centuries of toiling under a Mongolian yoke, centuries of being a weak and pitiful country. Then arose a great leader in China, Prometheus. My Lord Medici respected his majesty Prometheus, and his new instutions; the Republic, exponential expansion, setting up contacts with foreign nations including our own. The gaps were bridged, China suprassed our allies the Israelies.

However in this time China underwent numerous changes, her allies who once held their collective foot over the throat of China were now making amends for their actions. Borneo, Kamchatka, Siberia, Japan; all new territories gained under the reign of Prometheus from foreign states. More specifically the allies of China. Korea and Manchuria were settled by Prometheus, and China was growing quickly.

All the while the seeds were being sown, the alliance that was established between the Mongols, Australians and Chinese was strong and imposing to the western nations who for centuries have argued amongst themselves over even the most pathetic stretches of desert land. The west, unlike the east, grew in a place where at any moment a horde of Adriatic, Israeli, Mali or Zulu troops could be outside of your capital. We grew in a world where distrust wasn't merely a negative quality, but a key aspect of survival. Only the strong, the willing, survived among the strong western leadership.

Centuries later, the American issue came to pass, countless hours spent at the homes of ambassadors, senators, dukes, kings and consuls were poured into the issue for the prevention of an all out war. One of the issues was the situation in China, at this point they were just beginning to experience the rise of Prometheus, their renaissance as our French say. It was common knowledge throughout the world that the Chinese plight was very real, and possibly less common knowledge that it was suffered primarily at the hands of its allies the Mongols. The Adriatics with a great deal of foresight realized this, and King Lorenzo D'Medici clamored against the Chinese claim, citing that if the Pacific Pact wished to amend the Chinese situation, they would do so by giving China the lands taken from under its nose. Politics agian hushed the Adriatics.

Politics got in the way of the truth, regardless of this, our majesty Lorenzo D'Medici failed to obsolve the problem and relented, accepting the Chinese land grant. Since that time the expansion in the New World by the Chinese has been zero percent, not an inch of land was gained, not one inch, not a bit of new land was developed, the same city in teh same place for centuries. Does this sound like the actions of a desperate nation?

Meanwhile, troops entered Mexico, and despite the Chinese insistance that they recognized this land as Adriatic during the Adriatic-Mali war, they moved into the area. Does this sound like the actions of a peaceful nation? Further the Australians claimed Mexico when they have no prescence in the immedeate vicinity, the Chinese their allies claim that the powerful garrison sent into Mexico is there to explore. Maps are available, I know for a fact that not only do the Adriatics have maps of Mexico, but the Zulu do as well. Further, why send your strongest units if this is mere exploring? Do these sound like the actions of explorers? Or plunderers?

With these latest activities by China, combined with the ominous message recieved by "Drunken officials" of China, the Adriatic League is forced to review the situation. We have made no threat of war, no movement towards war, or no words that would be condusive to war towards the Chinese, yet we are met with hostility. The Chinese, NAY THE ENTIRE ALLIANCE, made a bid for a Chinese land grant. We agreed. We made a claim, yet they deny us the same respect, why? Because they are imperialists? Because they have no respect for us? Becuase they have no appreciation for what we sacrificed? Because they are foolhardy?

The answers to these questions are tough, and moot, and would only be answered with assumptions. We do know this; if our land grants are not accepted we see no reason to accept the grants of any other nation. The Mali have accepted our claims thus we accept theirs, the Israelites have accepted our claims and we are thankful to our allies, the Zulu have accepted our claims and we appreciate the wisdom of Shakeem.

The Mongols had accepted our claims yet don't seem to respect them any longer, this is not strange, for they did the same to their "allies" the Chinese.

The Chinese accepted our claims during the war with the Mali, yet they have done nothing to acquire dominance over their grnats, and have let foreign powers who have in the past DOMINATED them to settle within this territory.

The Australians have offered nothing, have said nothing, and continue to say nothing.

This is our stance, so let it be written so let it be done.

[GNGSpam]

Statement from the Malian Embassy

The Chinese people, for so long, have suffered ill fourtoune. They have lamented their fate to the great Empires of the world, and the whole world has offered sympathy. But have the Chinese ever contemplated their fate? Why do the Chinese lack a true homeland? Why are they forced to wonder the abandoned "left-overs" of Asia? Why are they offered only large expanses of land in areas their Asian Allies cannot control?

Have the Chinese thought, "who controls our homeland? Who intentionally took the great plains along the Yangtze and Yellow Rivers? Who owns, the homeland promised to the Chinese?"

The Adriatic League? So accused for hienously infringing on your New World claims? They have never been to China.

The Chinese, as a people, must come to a point, where they decide once and for all, who is responsible for their current dificulties, but more importantly, they must decide NOW, who is responsible for the Chinese future? Will your Mongol "allies", who luxeriate along the Yellow Rivers, who tax the Cantonese people, be allowed to dictate your future? Will you continue to be sent on a collision course with the Adriatic League? Ask yourself, have the Mongols promised to help you? Where is this "alliance" as you hurtle towards conflict?

The Chinese have suffered a horrible plight yes, but sooner or later, they must decide, do they allow the same forces which crippled them to continue to dictate their actions? Or do they grasp their future by their own hand, and stand up, and demand that their proud Nation be treated as a memeber of the world community.

Mali will help China, but first, China must help themselves...

Most Respectfully,
Diplomat to Beijing, Rahim Tingasso, Noble of Benin

[sekong]

Ok, also out of charcter talk.

Thanks for the comments, Chris. I'm kind of new to dipo games. Your posts make clear some issues, thanks. When I first came to this game, Capo kinda of warning me that it's a dipo game not war game, etc. But later I found he was the one who play tough, and finally actually sneak attacked others. I was a bit confused. That's another part of the story beside what has been told.

I like Chris' explanation, and agree that we should not take anything personal. On the other hand, I against evil-role-playing. Inside and outside the game. Because it brings bad effect to our pratice in life. You may disagree with this, then please take this as my in-game role-playing.

Back to game issue:

1. After a short conversation with Adratic leader, we glad to know that they will withdraw their troops from Mongolia land. We welcome peace with Adratic.

2.About the new land claim of Adratic, I can see at least 2 problems: overlap with Chinese claim on Northwest, where no settlement done yet; overlap with Aussie claim on Southwest where city has been founded. we need somehow to solve these problems and maybe more if other member of our ally raise them.

3. As the request of Mail, their legion are allowed to come closer to city of Salzberg temporally, as long as they will keep the "Mopti land agreement", which is Mali will settle on east of Mopti; Mongol and allies will settle on west of Mopti. Considering the new AL claim, and the fact that our land claim will be shared by at least 2 countries, and there is no other power present in NA yet, Mali appears to have the best land claim, if not the largest claim on NA.

4. Based on an agreement with China, Bergen and another NA mongolia city, yet to be announced, will be ceded to China next turn.

Peace,

Consul of Mongol

[sekong]

To King of Adratic League:

You are asking Mongolian to apology to you? Did you ever apology to Mali after you broke the peace agreement, attacked and destroyed their ship and the units on it? It's you who invaded the land of Mongol. Did you
ever apology for that?

Mongolian did nothing wrong. What should we apology for? First we asked your unit to left Issus, now it's even closer to the city. Further more you moved 2 more units on the land of Kabul. All of these invasion is just for an answer to your question? Anyway, we answered your question. But before you agree to left you threatened Mongol to be responsible if anything will happen. Such threat is unacceptable. Mongolian can only be responsible for what we did, nothing more. If you want to threaten us, and stay on the land of Mongolian, then it will be you who are responsible for the consequence of this invasion.

We said what we did is because:
1. the so-called agreement of leaving Moinglia territory comes with a threat.
2. From the recent report of Adratic, there is no sign of retreating.
3. From the history of Adratic League, it has a bad reputation of dishonoring treaty and agreements.

Look at the history of Adratic league: he performed bully behaviours to almost everyone having a border with him: broke the peace treaty with Mali and sneakly attacked them; Adratic city used 2 of the only 3 grassland on pathetic north Africa coast, which suppose to belong to Mali based your land agreement; invaded and threatened Mongolian; attempts to dispute the land claim of China when you just about to meet them. Yes, there seems to be one exception: alliance with Israelite. But it apears to do more harm than helpto them.

Your may have have fun with this kind of dipo, but it's based on the dislikeness, if we don't use the term suffering, of other nations. You better change it.

After you withdraw troops from Mongolia territory and apology for the invassion, you may have a better ground to talk. Show that you are a responsible leader, and having the wish of peace, then sure every one will like to talk about your land claims.

May God help you to realize your fault and we will welcome the change.

Sincerely,

Consul of all Mongolia tribes.

P.S. If there is anything I should apology, then it's maybe I took this a little more personal that it should be. If you keep your promise, withdraw
your troops from Mongolian territory, and promise won't come into the radius of our city without permission, willing to sitted down and talk about the land claimmings in NA, then maybe I was a little over-react. I would like to apology for the overreaction personally, but Mongolian have nothing to apology when their land are invaded.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by sekong (edited April 05, 2001).]</font>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by sekong (edited April 05, 2001).]</font>

[sekong]

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<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by sekong (edited April 05, 2001).]</font>

[GNGSpam]

Out of "Character" so to speak

Im only going to go through this once.

This is a game. More specifically this is a diplogame. To go one step further, it is a diplogame that we all love. Therefore the following things are expected-

1) People show up, on time, ready to play the full time, unless they tell us before hand (this means days before, not hours) they cant and why not.

2) People are civil and polite to each other OUTSIDE the game.

3) People do NOT take things seriously

4) People try to act like a national leader in the game, and treat their nation like a real nation.


Now. Let me clear some misconceptions.

War exists in a diplogame. Diplogames center around Politics. And as Clauswitz says, War is an extension of Politics.

Now, admittly, its an expensive and destructive option. It should not be taken lightly. But it IS an option and it WILL happen. We did not come here to make cities, build settlers, and then race for wonders. I can do that against the computer, its boring, its lame. We are here to be nations, this means alliances, treaties, border disputes, wars, trade, negotiations, etc etc etc. World War II happened in the real world? It can happen in a diplogame.

So we get to the issues now. Capo is acting like a bully? So what. If you think his nation is a bully, treat it like one. We are a community of 7 nations. If one is acting to big for his shorts, then slap him down. This is how international politics work.


Now, secondly, this isnt personnal! If someone invades you, rapes your women, and calls you a turkey, its in the game. Dont get offended. We cant all be good hearted caring democracies which love our people. There has to be a Russia, there has to be a Germany, we cant all be the good ole US of A. Its just spicing up the game. If we were all good, nothing would ever happen. It would be some disgustingly boring Utopia. Consider being bad ever once and awhile. You dont have to be bad all the time, just for a session or two, it adds depth to the game.


Dont turn this into a boring game with a 7 nation UN peacefully dividing everything making sure everyone is happy happy happy and holding hands. Lets try to add some spice and some depth, lets pretend its the real world. And when its all over, dont get pissed.

[Guest]

Capo, did you trick Easthaven, as a new sub, into giving or trading Chivalry with you? (He says he gave you Chivalry)

If this is true then you behaved irresposibly as organiser of this game.
The previous Mongol players would NOT have done this.
Our Eastern alliance has always consulted on such things and I briefed Easthaven as he hotjoined to take over from sekong. But you confused him in King Chat and you got Chivalry.
It's hard enough taking over as a sub without having someone like you clowning around like that.
I GAVE the Mongols massive numbers of techs earlier in the game as the first leader of the Mongols, War4ever, and Sekong would testify.

I don't mind losing strategic advantages from incidents that occur from within the game (and the storyline) but this, if true, is blatant pseudo-cheating.

I'm very un-impressed.

It changes the strategies in the game and reduces my enjoyment of what could have been a good game.

----

Also, it's ridiculous for Dimbleby, as host, to have gotten involved in a game where he has such restrictive deadlines.

But it was smart to play on with Sun Tzu as Israel's sub. Or maybe Sun could just take over... ?

------------------
*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[Prometheus]

I agree with Deity.

However is it really fair that you (to blame or) kick Dimbleby out just because he can’t play longer after all when the game started you guys agreed on 8-11 so why is he expected to play longer. At the beginning we needed to decide the times, whatever they are.

I think we need to decide what is going on before next week… who’s playing and who is not and whatnot also. I know you are intent on continuing the game however I think we should give some thought to a restart. The game has had more subs than that I ever could imagine. So perhaps we should restart the game with a core group of people who can play long hours from say 8-12 EST or even 6-12 EST. But anything we decide is ok with me.

[Guest]

Yeah Prom,I'm sorry about that Dimb but I'm so cranky about the other incident.

BTW Capo, I take it all back if I got my facts wrong, but it doesn't look like it

I think we continue with this game but let's see what Dimb and others think.

And we could run another game as well, of course

------------------
*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[The Capo]

I didn't trick Easthaven into anything.

[Mr Dimbleby]

I can't play past 11. Some of us have these things called jobs where we go to for 8+ hours a day, 5 days a week.

------------------
Thousands of monkeys are creating havoc in the corridors of power, barging into government offices, stealing food, threatening bureaucrats, and even ripping apart valuable documents.

Hey! That dried vomit under the couch looks like a horny toad.

[Guest]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 04-06-2001 07:04 AM</font>
I didn't trick Easthaven into anything.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Easthaven said he was confused about his allies.
You said you were everyone's ally (ha ha)
He hot joins and is trying to get his bearings with the Supreme civ with loads of cities and 60 units.... and you were badgering him in King Chat.

------------------
*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[The Capo]

I don't see why I have to answer to this.

I asked him if he would like to exchange technologies, primarily Medicine and Chivalry. He said he would be interested. I asked him what he wanted and I didn't have anything he wanted. So we made a land agreement, an agreement towards the Panama Canal, and a technology agreement. How this is my fault is totally beyond me. He was told by myself and I believe Chris who he was allies with, if he was confused he should have stopped and asked me to clarify his situation, I don't think this is my responsability to not only guess at whether or not he was confused, but remind him that maybe he should talk to his allies.

Besides that point, I don't understand why his allies should have any say other than advisory in his personal dealings. I am not an enemy of the Pacific Pact, and never have been, so how does this even effect you?

As far as Dimblebly is concerned, I have to say a few things because the situation is delicate and I don't want anything to be made out of it other than what it is. Dimb, after you left everyone except I believe Prometheus remained in the game, host duties shifted to Easthaven. Overwhelmingly (100%) of everyone wanted to play, the most adimate about this were Chris and Deity. It was a tough situation to iron out, but basically the group decided that it would be best if you didn't play in this game. I don't think its fair to you or anyone else to continue, if you have more important issues such as a job, then maybe it is unwise for you to continue playing. This game requires *SOME* sacrifice, not a lot, just some we ask for a little leeway. I think I speak for everyone when I say this. If we have a situation where either (a) the game is hurt because you have other responsabilities or (b) your responsabilities are neglected for some game, then both sides are really not getting a fair shake. This is no personal attack on you Dimbleby, I myself hold you in the highest regard, you are always on time, rarely complain, and are about as dependable as one could get. But the problem is you aren't flexible, and at this point in the game we need some felxibility from everyone even if only temporarily. So that is the situation, we may discuss this matter over the course of the week, as usual nothing is set into stone. However, as of right now Sun Tzu will be taking over the Israelies until another means to an end is proffered.

---------------------

There's something I personally want to express at this time, I hope EVERYONE reads this. Over the past few weeks I have recieved a bad rap from damn near everyone, in particular Sekong and Deity. When I say *I* I don't mean the Adriatic League, or King Ferdinand, or Carlo or whoever is "in charge" I mean Antonin Vincenzo DeNucci. My actual being, not my character or policy in the game, but my flesh and blood. I am personally insulted, I consider myself one of the most cooperative players to be involved with, I never "cheat" or try to "trick" anyone during my games, I am quite trustworthy. Some of my characters aren't, but despite this many of you have attacked me personally for what I do in the game, some of you have complained and if I read what Deity said correctly suggested starting a new game.

If you have a problem with me, say it, don't give vague words. I want to know what exactly you have against Tony D?

This is not a personal attack against Sekong or Deity, I just want to hear what they have to say so I can address it.

Alright well, as of right now we resume next week at our usual time, but again we can probably change it now, so we'll talk, but the roster for next week is as follows:

The Capo - AL
Deity - Australia
Chris - Mali
Drake - Zulu
Prometheus - China
Sekong - Mongolia
Sun Tzu - Israel

I hope to see everyone on time, this past session (Despite a few noteable incidents) was good. It was a solid session with plenty of action, not to mention a timely start. There was a lot going on, so I hope everyone finds the time between now and Wednesday to send Drake something to put up on the website.

Drake I'll try and get you mine before seven, if there's a chance you'll be on at that time cool, but whatever. If I can't get it to you tonight before seven, then it'll come Sunday night or Monday afternoon.

Peace.

[drake]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>The game has had more subs than that I ever could imagine. So perhaps we should restart the game with a core group of people who can play long hours from say 8-12 EST or even 6-12 EST. But anything we decide is ok with me.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Though we have had some struggles, there is no real reason to scrap a game that is progressing rather nicely. This diplo game genre gets a bad hit because games are almost never finished. Lets try not to be another statistic in the ever growing un-finished diplo game list. I made a comment last night to capo about how strong this group is as its persevered through all this sh1t. He agreed fully. Unless something un-bearable happens, lets continue the History of the World.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>I can't play past 11. Some of us have these things called jobs where we go to for 8+ hours a day, 5 days a week.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Point? A little lost sleep isn't gonna kill ya. I'm in the same boat.
Lets be honest Dimb, your level of interest cannot be all that high. Though you show up on time every week, there is little contribution to the diplomatic aspects of the game. You don't write anything for posts, never have, never will most likely. The rest of the group is willing to be somewhat flexible atleast, however you are not. There is no personal anger towards you, but the majority of the people in the game feel that someone like Suntzu would be better for the interest of the game.

I'm far from judge and jury, so if you have a good argument I'm definetly up for listening to it as everyone else is I'm sure. That being said, I think it's pretty much the consensus of the group that Suntzu should be the heir to Israels throne.

I updated the site last night after the game and my eyes are more bloodshot than capos because of it (computers 14 hours in a day ain't too good for my poor eyes). Please take a look when you have some time

edit: So is everyone up to starting an hour or two earlier than usual this coming week?


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by drake (edited April 06, 2001).]</font>