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Tales From The (Still) Diplomatic Front II

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  • MOSCOW MESSENGER, 15th NOVEMBER, 1826 AD. Early Edition.

    RUSSIAN ALLIANCE SPACECRAFT FIRST TO NEW WORLD.

    The Tri-party Alliance (Nick-named 'The Good Guys' by Pres. Milo) of the Russian, Viking and Sioux nations surprised the world today when, by the narrowest of margins they managed to land the first spaceship on Alpha-Centuria.
    The Race started with Aztec leader Pres. Nappy launching a spaceship almost out of the blue. The JTF held strong their alliance with the English, and the African Space agency was hastily formed.
    Due to unforseeable circumstances, leadership of Russia was handed from Pres. Superstarskii to his brother, Statesman Pastieman, taking the Pseudo-name Lenin for a turn last week. Under strict instructions, and following on from Superstarskii's earlier proposals, Pastieman sought help form the Vikings and the Sioux. The Vikings repaid Russian loyalty in the great war by joining them in the Space Race. Negotiations with new allies the Sioux also proved fruitful as their proud leader devoted considerable effort to co-found the RSV Space Agency.
    A few years later the JTF ship, faster and better equipt than the Aztecs effort was launced, arrival date 1826!
    This left the RSV agency and returning leader Superstarskii with only 8 years to build a ship faster than the African based shuttle. Russian theorists quickly came up with an estimate that the 10 years of travel taken by the JTF could be beaten, if rapid steps were taken. The RSV ship needed a further 24 pieces before it would be deemed fast (5-6 years) and safe enough to complete this task. However, communications problems and no time for haste left the SS Superstarskii heavier than needed (4 extra structurals than the blueprints required), and lacking 1 fuel and 1 propulsion system for the desired launch date of 1820. It seemed that the RSV had failed, resulting in riots and general disquiet throughout Russia.
    Pres. Superstarskii II, through his despair decided to delay the launch, and wait another year in order to shorten the 6.9 years the bodged ship would take to reach it's destination as much as possible. The folly paid off, and, in 1821, it was launched, with an arrival date of 1826, the same date as the JTF.
    That our ship arrived their first is fortunate, and as a mark of respect, a party was prepared for Japanese travellers, passed in space just hours before.
    It is a fitting end to world affiars that in the same year, representaives of 5 different nations reached the new world, with the Aztecs expected 3 years later.


    OTHER NEWS.
    The war for Asia still appears to be raging, with the evil AI now controlling both the Aztecs and the Chinese. Early reports indicated a string of Aztecs victories, yet it was the English nation that came out as the true victor. A blitzkreig English strike tore the heart out of the Chinese nation, with the capital Xi'an falling first. This also prevented the building of the Manhattan Project, the biggest threat to the world order that htis planet has ever seen. The Chinese capital was swiftly moved to Hong Kong. Hong Kong was attacked by a pincher movemtent of Russian troops to the east, and English to the west. The city was eventually liberated from the corrupted Chinese fundamentalist ideology by Russian paratroopers from nearby Harbin, formerly New Yakust (recaptured by Statesman Pastieman in Superstarskii's absence).
    It became the last city to be embraced into the Russian bosom, and it's people celebrated the arrival of the Spaceship with as much zeal as other Russian cities.

    A TRIBUTE.
    Russian leader Pres. Superstarskii would like to pay the following leaders respect;
    (Sorry guys, this may sound really tacky but I really enjoyed playing this game (most of the time) and feel like I have to say a few words of appreciation for including me in this world).
    Milo, our unfailing alliance held through thick and thin. Your nation suffered horrendous ethnic cleansing during the great War, and mine left virtually bankrupt and stagnated by a huge scale militarisation. Yet we survived, and surprised a few people.

    Grau Geist, like it or not you have been like a mentor to me, I have learnt a lot from you, and was upset when our alliance came to a peaceful end. I believe that you are the true winner, the ship landed the same year, and your nation was a lot more impressive than mine.

    Cap, Russia enjoyed a good relationship with the English, and we fought a few good battles together. The maps and strong English Voice at the negotiation table added a great deal to the atmosphere. I've also come to respect and fear your excellent miltiary strategies.

    Cavebear, you entered the game late fella, but just at the right time. Comendable for your patience and great wisdom, I really enjoyed playing alongside you. Thanks for your support in the Space race.

    Nappy, you missed the last session, but you led the Aztecs to a strong postion in world affairs.

    To the AI, you dirty, cheating low-life scum, we beat you ya bastard.
    Cheers guys, possibly the greatest diplomatic game of all time.

    Hmmm, hope I don't sound too much like Gwyneth Paltrow.

    Follow your spirit, and upon this charge Cry 'God for Harry, England and Saint George!

    Comment


    • You guys really crack me up....this game was over 3 weeks ago

      Comment


      • WE DID IT!!
        Everybody (except the Chinese)wins!

        A Hollywood movie script ending to an Epic Adventure!

        Only in a TRUE diplomatic contest could cooperation be achieved & rewarded so realistically & perfectly...

        1 lone extremely well-managed civ rush-launched an SS, then;

        2 longtime neighbors, originally enemies in the BC era, combined to launch a fast SS, & finally;

        3 civ's, 2 age old friends drawn closer & closer over the course of history melding into a well-honed team by virtue of war, turned their team toward the impossible task of building a late-launch, but optimium-speed SS... made possible only by the late arrival & tenacity of a leader that understood the concept of cooperation!!

        Amazing, simply amazing.

        But this race was only 1 part of the definition of "winning", in a contest like this there was alot more than 1st ship to another planet.
        Witness the "Powergraph". We Vikings were only able to climb out of the cellar thanks(?) to the Chin's late-era attack to restart the war. A herculean sabotage effort costing numerous spies & the combined efforts of the English, Russian, & Viking military to keep the Evil Empire from building the Manhatten Project & loosening a nuclear holocaust on all of us & the environment!!

        Our valiant Viking veterans + our cunning spies backed by the super-productive business/trade community, were able to recapture 2 of our former "colony" cites + an Chin city due south of their capital.

        This, combined with repeated strafing attacks by our remaining fighter squadrons against Chin partsians & engineers blocking access to their capital, cleared the path for Field Marshal CapTVK's hard-charging English armored columns to smash thru the Chin capital(s)... FINALLY putting an end to their Manhatten Project efforts!

        Meanwhile, our engineers were finally able to re-establish our Gobi desert city that the Great Asian War had destroyed! Thus we Vikings clawed our way ahead of the Evil Chin Empire in total "power".

        Attention / mention should go also to fine & selfless effort that nearly all the participating leaders of the modern era made to reduce pollution! Job well-done! During the last decade, this world was on the verge of global warming. Between cleaning up polluted areas, building cleaner production facilities & urban cleanup improvements, & at the end, despite the rush to space, the number of solar plants rushed to completion actually REDUCED the global pollution level.
        Again, a tribute to the cooperative nature or this contest. Hear-Here!!

        Beyond this, I can add little to Super Russians eloquent signoff.

        There are many more great & not-so-great leaders that participated & we hope to rollcall off here. But i cannot leave this point without citing SmartFart the guy that was our very first host(& now we know why). He blasted the Croatian/Aztec civ to first place, held there for the last 1/3 of history by the able & tenacious Nappy.

        I plan, if someone else doesn't, to publish the final civ scores in ALL catoagories & i'm sure some1 will be posting the 5 greatest cities list for all to see & be enshrined in CivII Gold MP history!!

        So long fair fans & devotees!! It was EVERYTHING we hoped it would be & MORE!

        Milo, the Meek / the Magnificient / the Nice Blonde / the Mystic

        PS: Nappy, it ain't over until the Fat Lady Trio sang... on Alpha-Centauri.
        "Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

        Comment


        • World Review: Nr.4-1826

          By the the English Ministery of Foreign Affairs

          This is the final situation in 1826:
          • Russians (29 cities) Superstar Size: Large
          • Japanese (28) GrauGeist Size: Large
          • Vikings (18) Milo Size: Medium
          • Aztecs (27) *none* Size: Large
          • Chinese (13) *none* Size: Small
          • English (28) CapTVK Size: Large
          • Sioux (12) Cavebear Size: Small


          The large players haven't changed that much, a few cities gained/lost here and there, the Vikings are back on their original level but the surprise newcomers are the English with 28 cities. All in all not a bad effort for the English if you remember their position in the first world review. We went from 11 cities to 28 in roughly 500 years (although that includes a few cities conquered in the final blitz against China).

          P.S The top-5 city list is on the way...

          CapTVK, the civilized "that worked out quite well I guess..." leader of the English nation
          Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.

          Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer

          Comment


          • JAPANESE TRADE FEDERATION FINAL POST

            Japan hails the reaching of the distant star of Alpha Centauri. The joint African Continental peoples arrived at the 4th planet from the Alpha Centauri sun just ten years after launching from the African Space Port of Satsuma. The 4th planet was the most similar in atmospheric structure to our own world. Just hours before the epic landing was to take place, the future Alpha colonists were surprised to see a ship closing from the distance. As the spaceship gained and finally passed the African Queen, lookouts were surprised to see an eclectic mix of Russians drinking Vodka, Vikings drinking Port, and Sioux drinking Wampum together in a wild celebration that must be censored from these pages. Lets just say that we suspect there will be a lot of children running around soon on this new planet with fair-hair and tanner skin. ;-)

            Upon seeing the faster ship approaching the scheduled landing zone ahead, the Captain altered course for the final touchdown. By the time the English and Japanese adventurers stepped through their portal onto new soil there was a greeting committee waiting for them. The drunken debauchery and celebrating that ensued was edited from the first colonist broadcast back to the old world, scheduled to arrive here in 5.4 years. Following the week long celebration each nation went their separate ways, each in 5 different directions, in an attempt to settle all the really good land before the Aztecs arrive in 3 years. ;-]

            THE END


            Well guys I have to agree that it was a unique experience, Milo thanks for not leaving me as the only “old man” of the game. Super, Milo, Cavebear congrats on a stunning gentleman’s coup. CAP, what can I say, I should have listened to you ;-) ; our one war was fun and exciting, especially since you and I came out on top! Cavebear, too bad we didn’t have you around earlier this year, we could have used a dedicated player like you. Nappy, you slid in nicely as my arch rival following SF’s departure. You even managed a couple of coups yourself; the Dam and SETI. However, sort of along the lines of what Milo said: It ain’t over till the computer says its over and kicks you out of the game. So, now its over!

            I had the time so I figured I could make this statistical contribution, I would have spent some time comparing the data anyway so why not compile it for the record. So everyone here is the world at the end broken down into numbers:

            DEMOGRAPHICS:

            APPROVAL RATING:

            Japanese 76%
            Russians 73 %
            English 69%
            Aztecs 68%
            Chinese 63%
            Sioux 58%
            Vikings 49%

            LAND
            Square Miles
            Japanese 1,630,000
            Russian 1,187,000
            Viking 933,000
            English 698,000
            Aztec 605,000
            Chinese 520,000
            Sioux 262,000

            POPULATION
            Japanese 26,660,000
            Aztecs 21,080,000
            English 17,160,000
            Russian 13,340,000
            Viking 8,690,000
            Chinese 4,030,000
            Sioux 2,790,000

            FAMILY SIZE
            Children
            Sioux 4.9
            Viking 4.7
            Chinese 4.4
            Aztec 3.6
            English 3.6
            Japanese 3.1
            Russian 3.0

            GNP
            Millions $
            Japanese 3, 053
            English 2,774
            Russian 1,775
            Aztecs 1,760
            Vikings 939
            Chinese 442
            Sioux 284

            PRODUCTIVITY

            English 79
            Japanese 77
            Viking 75
            Sioux 71
            Russian 68
            Chinese 64
            Aztec 55

            MFG GOODS
            MTons
            Japanese 558
            English 401
            Aztec 373
            Viking 348
            Russian 274
            Chinese 155
            Sioux 95

            ANNUAL INCOME
            $ per capita
            English 880
            Japanese 704
            Russian 609
            Aztec 450
            Viking 435
            Chinese 435
            Sioux 368

            LITERACY
            Aztecs 80%
            Russian 64%
            Japanese 64%
            Viking 64%
            Chinese 64%
            English 64%
            Sioux 64%

            DISEASE

            Japanese 3%
            Aztec 7%
            English 9%
            Viking 10%
            Chinese 13%
            Russian 18%
            Sioux 18%

            LIFE EXPECTANCY
            Years
            Japanese 75
            Aztec 66
            English 62
            Viking 58
            Chinese 50
            Russian 47
            Sioux 45

            POLLUTION # of Pollution
            TONS Squares at end
            Russian 140, 0
            Aztec 200, 1
            Sioux 200, 2
            English 250, 1
            Chinese 360, 3
            Viking 410, 10 !!!
            Japanese 1290, 1

            MILITARY SERVICE
            Years
            Chinese 6
            Aztec 4
            Viking 2
            English 2
            Sioux 2
            Russian 1
            Japanese 1



            <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Grau Geist (edited November 15, 1999).]</font>

            Comment


            • I, Jacque de Beaulieu du Montpelier, have discovered an amazing thing. In my travels through the World in this year of 1850, I have found a story beyond telling. Were I not to have seen this with my very eyes, Sacre Bleu, I would not countenance it's truth! Attached by vines to a paper birch tree of not more than 5 years, I have found this tale inscribed with sharp stone on birch bark! To wit, and in God's grace, know the truth of this telling! I transcribe now the story I have read, so far as I can understand the marvels it relates:

              "My name is cavebear. I am the last of the People. By the kindness of others, and by the hard work of the People, we have sent our kind beyond this world! I scarce understand the event, yet my heart leaps like the stag in rut at the promised outcome. I alone of the People am left to tell the tale. I can smile now, seeing myself bereft of the civilization once known as the Sioux, yet also knowing that the People have a new start on a new body of Earth in a new place I can scarcely comprehend. Bitter tears of what is lost, yet bright tears of joy that the People will continue!

              "The tale of this wondrous outcome starts earlier than the lives of my eldest tribesmen, even Turok the ancient, who has children of children of children of children. In the times past knowing, some people started their existence, as we did. But some achieved a way of learning new things that we did not. Eventually, some of those children of gods discovered us, and offered us knowledge of unforeseen things. Other tribes refused the knowledge, but we perceived the potential for expansion and mystic enlightenment.

              "And enlightened we were! Tales of worlds beyond this one filled our ears, and we were given proof… Technologies beyond our grasp were demonstrated and offered to us. We were able to comprehend that adventures worthy of the gods were at our fingertips. We girded our loins and applied ourselves to the demands at hand. Never did so many give their all in concert with a single outcome. Alas, we were too late in our leanings, and the other peoples passed us by in their demigodhood!

              "The People are not without courage, though, and they knew that the grand cycle of time rewards those who dare great things. We struggled to understand the new ideas, we applied ourselves to the demands of each day, fresh with the certainty that our efforts would not go unnoticed. The spirits of our Fathers did not abandon us; we were brought into to a caring alliance by those of greater power.

              "We learned of the different people attempting the mighty deeds: The English and the Chin, the Federation of the Japanese, the Empire of the Aztecs, and the noble ones of the Rus and Vik people. We were welcomed into the company of the noble ones… The Rus had a tech to build things we could not, as did the Vik…

              "But the People had something of value as well. We had accumulated goods and assets during our long existence. These things could be traded for gold to purchase parts of a "space ship" and for advanced military units for defense or attack. At my urging, the tribal leaders agreed to the strategy. We traded away the valued items of our heritage in exchange for a future life. At long last space ships were built and launched. The first was the Aztecs. They launched a ship due to land in 1829. We were greatly dismayed at this surprise.

              "Shortly after that, we saw, to our distress, the light of a second space ship launched. This was by the Japanese Trade Federation. That was the darkest hour of our cold night. Our sacrifices seemed doomed to failure.

              "We had not comprehended, though, the power of the Rus people. With industrial help from the Vik, they built a ship in only a few short turns. We, in turn, sent all our assets to aid in the effort. In such grand projects, Chaos may reign supreme, and it appeared that the complex timetable for finishing the ship had failed due to a mismatching of structures. Still, with a stout heart and great courage, the Rus ship was launched, carrying also settlers of the Vik and the People.

              "In 1826, the SS 'Good Guys' landed safely on the 4th planet of Alpha Centuri. Oh what a celebration had been held on the final day (and night) of the voyage! All disembarked with aching heads and tired bodies. The message of success was transmitted back to the People (certain parts of which were understood only by the People), and we here left behind pondered our future. At a great meeting, it was decided that we would return to our ancestral ways and disperse our tribes. The great knowledge that was gained is being deliberately set aside and not passed on. I am the last to keep the records alive.

              "Still, it is fit that other peoples should know of the glorious deeds, that they may turn their eyes to the stars if that suits their nature. Traveler, should you desire this knowledge, seek out the peoples I have named. Farewell…"

              *******************

              To Super, Milo, Nappy, Grau Geist, and CapTVK: This 11th hour warrior thanks all of you (and all of the other players along the way) who made this amazing adventure possible! I was pleased to be included at the end, and I really appreciated all the kind words, encouragement, and civ assistance I received.
              Civ2 Demo Game #1 City-Planner, President, Historian
              Civ2 Demo Game #2 Minister of War,President, Minister of Trade, Vice President, City-Planner
              Civ2 Demo Game #3 President, Minister of War, President
              Civ2 Demo Game #4 Despot, City-Planner, Consul

              Comment


              • The New English Times: issue 20 final edition

                The last geopolitical worldmap in 1826AD:



                London scores first place in the city top-5
                In a twist of fate London is voted the best city in the top-5. For the last two centuries London was always one or two places behind the JTF.

                This the offical top-5:


                But thanks to a archeological excavation under a recently demolished storehouse on the outskirts, London is now the owner of a new WoW and a new tourist attraction, 'the Oracle'. "We always thought it was destroyed in 3000 BC when London (Londinnium as it was called in those days) was invaded by barbarians" and "Apparently only the upper level was destroyed, the lower levels were left relatively untouched by the barbarians as they had been closed off, it's the greatest archeological find ever!" mentioned Howard Carter and the earl of Carnarvon who are in charge of the excavation.

                Tying up loose ends...
                from the editor:
                The 'IN' tray is almost empty, the rest of the staff is already off to the Alpha Centauri party being held at the Copernicus Observatory in celebration for being the first solar system colonized outside of our own, I'll be joining them in the party shortly. It's been an interesting job working as the editor of the NET, I've seen England go through good times and bad times but they've always been interesting times. That's why it's sorry to leave, I won't be leaving civilization completely behind though. I've been offered a job as the editor for a new magazine in the world of 'FreeCiv'. But that's for the future to decide, now for those final loose ends...
                They're will be one final update to the archive by restoring the previous issues with had maps to their orginal state. This will result in higher load times, unfortunately, but the English Historical Society insists that those issues have to be in their orginal state to give a fair representation for our 'History of the World'-series. Once those updates are complete you'll be able to get the complete collection in a special format called PDF from here: http://home.worldonline.nl/~thomas/pdf/


                That's about it really, excuse me but I have a party to attend!...
                Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.

                Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer

                Comment


                • Outstanding! You are a master of the publishing world sire!
                  I take it then that we may DOWNLOAD these files at your site?
                  This epic MUST BE saved in order that we may teach our grandchildren the "Way of the Civ".

                  It will be truly difficult to match this contest in interest, diversity, & shear excitement of the process & the results!

                  I'm looking forward to trying tho. And then someday we can come together again & do it via holographics!(?)

                  CapTVK it's been a pleasure & a treasure to have your abundent talents(& time?) available to achieve all of this for us.

                  PS: about that "Oracal" thing...
                  "Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

                  Comment


                  • The first 5 parts are now available on my own website, finally have gotten around too actually making one , check out: http://home.worldonline.nl/~thomas/

                    When I started converting these threads to PDF for archive reasons and offline reading I was simply amazed how much has been written. When I convert the final part to PDF it will be close to 200 pages! Don't despair though, it makes for some interesting reading if you want to know what goes in a diplogame. Although I think the term 'public diplogame' is more appropriate for this sort of multiplayer game. We've seem to have build quite a collection of Civ2 variants (OCC,Arena, Normal, No wonders, diplogames) maybe some sort of Civ Multiplayer FAQ is in order?

                    P.S on that Oracle thingie. Well, it was one of the last wonders on the list. I had some gold left and it would be a shame not too build it. Even if it was 5000 years too late...

                    Oh yes, and the credits of course:

                    JTF(Japan)[*]GrauGeist

                    Vikings[*]Milo KenThur

                    Russians[*]Pastiman[*]Superstar

                    English[*]Gideon(Jimbob?)[*]CapTVK

                    Aztecs(Croats)[*]Smartfart[*]Nappy

                    Sioux[*]John Barbarossa[*]Takeshi [*]Colon[*]Cavebear

                    Chinese[*]Geronimo[*]Martin Guerre[*]Pseudo


                    Of course there are also some one-session subs, avid readers and independent advisors(Ceasar, Cromwell etc..). Thanks for making this an interesting game...

                    Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.

                    Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer

                    Comment


                    • Last post before I convert this thread to PDF. I suppose there'll be the occasional '<BUMP>' to put this thread back on top but the PDF version will end here.
                      This thread is the 2nd half of the 'tales from the front (in 3D stereo)'-game. The complete version (6 parts) of this diplo game can be found at: http://home.worldonline.nl/~thomas/

                      One final piece of advice:
                      Just talk to people, you'll be amazed what talking can do...

                      The END
                      Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.

                      Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer

                      Comment


                      • You forgot to bump part 2 of the thread JB
                        Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.

                        Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer

                        Comment


                        • While hunting down Milo's 'Damn' blunder i thought it might be interesting to show how the final diplogame of the last millenium was played. Be warned this is only part-2, so there's more!

                          You can of course read this story at your leisure in PDF format. Check my webpage, which I'll one day have turn into a real page...
                          Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.

                          Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer

                          Comment


                          • It was a good game.....interesting how this got bumped back to the top....I inherited a hopeless situation from SF...I was at war with the entire world except for the Chinese and then GG found a psycho Chinese player that wanted to fight me too ......thats ok.....the Aztecs won the race to Hoover Dam and Seti and then we launched AC 1st....the entire spaceship ,was constructed and launched in 1 turn...quite possibly the only time that has happened in MP...and then the so called end game occurred without the Aztecs or the Chinese present(2 of the major antogonists in the game)....Smartfart developed a kickass civ and we kept up the tradition.....and we were never defeated by ANYONE in the classic Diplo 2 game!
                            " First France......then the WORLD!"

                            Comment


                            • bump, this needs to be archived

                              Ming, get on it.



                              ------------------
                              Ozzy - King of Metal
                              Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
                              Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
                              Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net
                              Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012

                              When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah

                              Comment


                              • *bump* And the second part of the thread...


                                P.S
                                John Barbarossa,
                                If you're reading this, could you enlighten the newbies in the art of diplomacy?
                                Skeptics should forego any thought of convincing the unconvinced that we hold the torch of truth illuminating the darkness. A more modest, realistic, and achievable goal is to encourage the idea that one may be mistaken. Doubt is humbling and constructive; it leads to rational thought in weighing alternatives and fully reexamining options, and it opens unlimited vistas.

                                Elie A. Shneour Skeptical Inquirer

                                Comment

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