The MP forums have gone Diplo-Crazy!!!!

[The Capo]

Alright, there are what? Three or four diplogames going on right now? Cockney's game, Saus' game, Euro and Ultra.

This is crazy, by far the most diplogames I have seen before going on at any one time. I made the proposal before in the Diplo-Faq posted by CapTVK or whatever his name was, that there be a huge Diplogame of all Diplogames involving the best players (Actually I think Ozzy said the best players part).

Well I think we should address this, because lots of Diplogames that fail (and lets face it most do) give the genre a bad rap. Alright, I don't know what I am saying I am just blathering on.

I guess what I am trying to say is that we should do something with Diplogames, maybe create a seperate area in the forums?

I personally love Diplogames and have actually found that I don't play regular MP games anymore now. I think that we could do a few things, maybe even develop a website that assists players in the ways of diplogames, like making meaningful posts and playing properly within the game, such as "playing your leader" to a proper degree.

But ultimatley I want a Diplogame that will go down in the history of Diplogames as the greatest ever. I think we should have a few new techs and lots of new units, custom graphics and the works to make this the ultimate Diplogame and the ultimate game of Civ for that matter. This obviously would not occur for maybe another month to two months, but I think its something that should be done, and something that will be done. And that is something I personally want ot be a part of. So whoever reads this, what do you say?

[OzzyKP]

Capo, i agree on all points.

I too am personally shocked at how big diplogames are at the moment. And i'm somewhat apprehensive that this may dilute the whole concept, not that i want to hoard the genre, but i agree with Capo. Perhaps a sepperate place to hold them would be a good idea.

And as for the Ultimate Diplomatic game, i agree with you entirely Capo, I suggest we take our time and really select the settings and players and everything carefully. I'd certainly want you in the game and it wouldn't be much fun for me if i was left out, hehe.

I think selecting players is the most important part of it, diplo games have fallen apart because of people dropping out and people not truly understanding the concept and playing 'wrong' also it becomes discouraging when there is only one or two players making great posts and the rest are just ignoring that aspect of the game. We need to find 7 players who will be in it for the long run and who will play in the most enlightened capacity of diplo games.

I'm thinking perhaps a start time in January.

I suggest a large world map
7 human players
1x1x
slowed down tech tree for a longer more intersting game
increased movement for ships
any other delightful tweaking that capo and the rest of us can come up with.

I also suggest that any volunteers be screened extensively and be judged upon past diplo game performance. Perhaps interviews by Capo and I. Perhaps make this a Veteran Diplo game, for only the hard core experienced diplo gamers.



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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net

[Ming]

There is really no need to set up a seperate section for Diplo games.

While Diplo games are a tad different, they are still Civ MP games. Most people play MP with their own "custom" rules (no bribe cities, no tech trading, no alliances...) Diplo games are just another variation of the same basic game.

Plus, it's not like the MP forum is the most active forum on Apolyton. There is plenty of room in this forum to discuss all types of MP games

It also gives all the MP players an option to check out other ways of playing.

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

[suas333]

I agree that the Diplo games should stay here. I don't think there are TOO many going on either. Each game is trying new things, and the results can help you guys chose what settings to have a good big diplogame in January.

If allowed, I hope to be included if there is room in a larger game!

[Frank Johnson]

Well whats you're definition of good? I'm certainly a skilled player, passionate at that, and I've rarely missed a session. I'm not even saying I would be available, I've been working alot lately. My style of play just doesnt agree with certain indivduals...just make sure by "good" you don't mean "popular"....

[suas333]

good point. In the 2 diplogames i've had, I was able to jump out to an early lead, but i don't know why that would be a requirement for this diplogame. I am probably overly generous in diplogames but thats because i don't believe there is 1 clear winner. A small civ can be just as fun and just as involved in the politics of the game.

[OzzyKP]

If you two are interested then give me reasons why you should be included. Explain what you will bring to the game.

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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net

[drake]

A suggestion if this game does get off the ground: Create a web site specifically for the event (and events like it in the future). This would allow more flexibility in the story telling aspect for visuals, diagrams, etc. that can be uploaded. In-depth profiles for players could be created, etc. If you're going to hype this as the "Ultimate" diplo game, do it the right way- create something that could be used to chronicle the events throughout the beginning of the game to it's completion. Sort of like the superbowl of civ. This sounds a bit much for a civ game, but hey, people do the same thing for a game that lasts three hours! A game of this proportion could last months! On a Giga-sized map, imagine how long it would take! Turns would be 15 minutes a player later in the game, easy. Just something to consider......

If you're looking for the most dedicated civ diplo gamers, this would definetly not be a stretch I wouldn't think. Stories are great. But they are even better with some nice pictures in them. For example, screenshots of territories as the game progresses could be quite interesting.........

Just a suggestion.......

[The Capo]

Okay first of all, Ming I didn't mean to say that this wasn't a proper place for a Diplogame, what I meant was that this forum has its limits, and a Diplogame is quite complex. I was thinking more along the lines of a specific area NOT on the forums at all.

Such as a website for it, so there can be constant updating of maps and crap like that. I also think it would be wise to tweek a lot of the in game stuff becuase sometimes its not too diplofriendly.

I don't have time to write anymore because my Lit class is starting three minutes ago, so I gotta jet. But keep this forum up because I made it.

Peace.

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"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

-Winston Churchill


"Ceterum censo Carthaginem esse delendam"
"Also I think that Carthage must be destroyed"

-Cato the Elder, Roman Statesmen


One Love.

[ml_4da3]

I would happily join this game!! It sounds like it could be very intresting and fun. ...but maybe I am not "good enough".. ...But if there is "room" for me, please let me know..

..Anyway, regarding webspace, I am co-owner of an "IT" company called InfiDyne (http://www.infidyne.com). We are a modern information technology service provider. We offers a variety of products and services, such as network administration, contract programming, and web hosting.. ..And we would happily "sponsor" this "project" with free web-space (maybe 100 meg or so).

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by ml_4da3 (edited November 29, 2000).]</font>

[The Capo]

Alright, well we should just call this one "Tales from the Diplomatic Front #" because as far as I am concerned we are seeing a break down in the idea of a continuing numeric record thing, or something.

I mean you have tales from the Monday Diplogame, tales from the New Diplo Front, and stuff like that. I know I created tales from the Ultimate Diplomatic Front I, but not only did I number it but since its on a Gigamap I think it should have a distinction.

As an aside before I get to the meat of my post here, I would like to personally give the vote of confidence that Frank Johnson should be in, I have seen his work and am not only impressed, but have emulated it on many occasions in my "elite" postings.

Jeez, there are lots of topics to discuss here, and as anyone who has played with me in a Diplogame should know, I love to interject myself a lot.

So here goes... First of all I think that the suggestion by Mdl or whatever his name was, is a good idea. This should be a special thing for the civ community and should not only serve as a precedent but also serve as a teaching method to those who think that diplogames are always destined to failure and bordem and to those who are curious as to what a Diplogame entails. I think the site should constantly be updated as far as the civ scores and demographics go, we should always have maps up (not in game, but based on the game) to show what is going on. We may want to have diagrams to help show what has went on in a particular subject, for instance show the slow military build up of the Mamaluke civilization on the Goomba border. Stuff like that.

Also on this site it would be cool to actually archive the posts of past diplogames as long as Ming and Co. would be willing to allow it.

As I have said before, I think Diplogames are growing in popularity because we are getting new gamers that aren't here for just the wham bam thank you ma'am aspect of the games, especially those in the zone, we are getting more gamers that like other aspects like long-term strategy, trade, diplomacy and other things that are really helping the genre.

I personally think that is is a good thing for the game itself, because this way at least every aspect can be appreciated during a game. I agree with the proposition that this be a x1x1 game, seven human civs, King mode or whatever actually doesn't matter to me, well I think I am talking way to much so let's get to the questions I want to ask...

1) What types of new units and techs would everyone want in this game?

2) Is everyone in agreement that for the sake of this game ONLY two civs can be on a continent? And we should try and involve each continent, liveable one at least?

3) Should we play on the regular world.mp map, or should we use a map that may serve as a better representation of the world?

4) What rules if any do we impose?

[OzzyKP]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 11-29-2000 05:56 PM</font>
Alright, well we should just call this one "Tales from the Diplomatic Front #" because as far as I am concerned we are seeing a break down in the idea of a continuing numeric record thing, or something.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>


We could go back to that, if anyone really knows what number we are at IX i think, Capo, didn't you start an ill-fated diplo VIII? I know there was a diplo VII, so we are either at diplo IX or VIII. Another thought of mine is i'm getting bored of this whole Tales from the X way of naming these, and perhaps we can show some creativity and break from that altogether. Though it doesn't matter tremendously to me. I believe diplo games started as "An open letter to all nations" or something like that.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 11-29-2000 05:56 PM</font>
As an aside before I get to the meat of my post here, I would like to personally give the vote of confidence that Frank Johnson should be in, I have seen his work and am not only impressed, but have emulated it on many occasions in my "elite" postings.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

While I remember Frank being involved in the split in Diplo V near the end, i don't know if that would tarnish his whole playing reputation, because i believe he has been involved in several others and has conducted himself in the best possible way. And i'm not entirely sure if he was even at fault at all in Diplo V, so yea, i'd certainly consider Frank for a slot in our next outing.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 11-29-2000 05:56 PM</font>
So here goes... First of all I think that the suggestion by Mdl or whatever his name was, is a good idea. This should be a special thing for the civ community and should not only serve as a precedent but also serve as a teaching method to those who think that diplogames are always destined to failure and bordem and to those who are curious as to what a Diplogame entails. I think the site should constantly be updated as far as the civ scores and demographics go, we should always have maps up (not in game, but based on the game) to show what is going on. We may want to have diagrams to help show what has went on in a particular subject, for instance show the slow military build up of the Mamaluke civilization on the Goomba border. Stuff like that.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Sounds good

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 11-29-2000 05:56 PM</font>
1) What types of new units and techs would everyone want in this game?

2) Is everyone in agreement that for the sake of this game ONLY two civs can be on a continent? And we should try and involve each continent, liveable one at least?

3) Should we play on the regular world.mp map, or should we use a map that may serve as a better representation of the world?

4) What rules if any do we impose?
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

1) Well i'm not sure i would want any new techs, perhaps only modifications of existing techs like you did in EuroDip, new techs would really change the gameplay. Same thing for new units, change the pic or the name perhaps, but i don't think we should add any units, unless it is really good and you can convince me and everyone else otherwise.

2) Sounds good to me, but just have reason, we may want more than 2 in Asia perhaps, and 2 in Australia or South America would be crazy, so i think one in N. America, one in S. America, one in Europe, two in Asia, two in Africa would work well. Though open to discuss obviously. Personally i think i'd like a N. America start.

3) If you can find a better world map go ahead, but NO GIGA MAPS. I like the size of the current world.mp, some tweeks i can see would be increasing the size of the oceans to their more realistic dimensions, and changing the size of Europe to be more realistic. And any other tweaks you have in mind, but no Huge maps!

4) There are many rules we need to discuss. The bribing issue always comes up, and i think it is essential to include this in the game, though if the world community regards bribing a nefarious, dasterdly thing then they can respond accordingly to someone who uses it, but i certainly don't feel it should be banned in any fashion. Same thing for nukes. If you want to use them, fine, but expect to find the other 6 nations pretty damn pissed off.

I liked the idea of changing the movement of ships to increase their importance. Another issue we need to discuss is trading wonders, i don't feel strongly either way on it, so talk about it.

I think we should compel people to post, though i don't know how to do this. Perhaps have awards for the best post of the week where all players have to give a percentage of their gold to the winner. We could have visitors rank them at the new diplo site. Or anything else you can think of.

I'd like to see more creative innovations introduced to this game as well. I like how in Eurodip Moker is letting people 'invest' in his stock market, borrowing money and then giving it back to them with interest. This is very realistic, and could certainly be useful in the game. Perhaps not allow it until the two trading nations have invented banking or something.

And any other real world things like this, i like money exchange deals, cause in our current world everything centers around money and trade, and that aspect is significantly downplayed in the game. Perhaps think of things to increase this aspect. I like tolls and fees and other such ideas.

Any other rules?



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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net

[OzzyKP]

Oh a few more tweaks i thought up.

Decrease the cost of caravans, that will increase the incentive to build trade routes, which is under utilized i think.

And i think we should slow the game down a bit by changing the tech speed. We've got till 2100 or whenever to play this game, i suggest we use it all. Capo is proficient enough to tweak it so that we end up right where we are supposed to and not launching space craft in the 18th century.

This will give us more time to play (and more fun) and i like the idea of having substantial time from the point where we have colonized to the extent of the map and the end of the game, which will give us plenty of time to really develop the game and not just expand. So slowing it down is a must have.

And as for the player placement, i also like the idea of having an empty continent or chunk of land so that we can have a race for colonies and imperialism, that would be interesting i think. Rather than everyone starting with their easily definable borders and just sitting back filling it in, having some empty unclaimed land that we can all scramble for. Just a thought.





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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net

[The Capo]

In a lot of Diplogames we have random starting points, which I personally dislike becuase it takes away from the ethnic meaning of placenames (most people try and name cities according to where they are historically, and the Egyptians having a city called The Hague "the court" in Dutch is stupid).

On that note, I would like to continue my traditional Euro-play and take the reigns of the European Union (I am having fun with them in UltraDip).

Alright I have devised a maximum civ toll per continent:

North America - 2
South America - 1
Australia - 1
Europe - 1
Africa - 2
Asia - 3
Antarctica - NONE WHAT SO EVER, seeing as how it doesn't exist in world.mp.

I suggest that players get to decided their starting point and we should play with REALISTIC nation names (i.e. no Metalheads). I was actually not going to add in any techs, but I was going to make a few units like the "Regulars" unit which is a colonial attack unit on foot, and "Infantry" which is a WW1 era attack unit also on foot.

Some guy e-mailed me and suggested I change the Republic to Socialism, but I said no, any thoughts on that?

I personally do not think that wonder trading should be permitted because it takes away from the wonder itself, and is quite unrealistic in all senses of the idea. The idea of a wonder (in civ terms at least) is that a civilization has achieved a great goal and due to this achievement has recieved some sort of advantage that only they could accomplish, trading wonders tarnishes this real world idea, and I think should not be allowed.

But one comes under the dillema; if a civ intends on granting land to another, but in that land is a wonder what occurs? Well we are all humans, so I think we can decide what the intent behind the land grant is in the first place.

In order to make the space race all the more far off (to use more time) I suggest an increase in the cost of creating parts.

I am interested in Moker's stock market idea, how exactly does it work?

[CapTVK]

You don't check the forums for awhile and suddenly everyone goes diplocrazy! Not that i'm complaining but 2-3 diplogames at the same time is a bit much, in fact it's actually counterproductive.

Starting diplogames isn't a problem, finishing one is. All the games that have been undertaken is tales from the front II have fizzled out sooner or later. A diplogame isn't some sort 'super civ2 mp'-game, it can take weeks, months to complete! You'll also have to be motivated to write something about it at the end of every session. Getting a group of dedicated players is one thing, getting them to post weekly is another So please read the FAQ (which I'll update this weekend).


P.S
Good luck with setting up the ultimate diplogame (It's gonna be tough to beat TFTDF-II! just some friendly encouragement).

With luck Civ3 will probably be just around the corner once we reaches AC. Reading up on the ultimate diplogame thread will be a good way to pass the time.