The way of the apolyton brat

[Wezil]

"virtually no advantage"
"basically the entire time"
"it doesn't make a huge difference in my game"
"Doesn't do a whole hell of alot"
"we played probably 4 turns at most where the riot factor came into play"


As much as you try to minimise the advantage, fact is you had valuable information on your altered rules text that was not shared with your opponent (can we check the chat logs on this too EoN?). I'm disappointed but not surprised.

Busted.

Again.





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'The absent are always wrong.'

Free the D**d Threads!!

[Eyes Of Night]

First of all, most of my game are decided before riot factor even takes effect. SEcond it really ****ing pisses me off when I have to click on 20 cities a turn, and especially when my opponent does too because then lag becomes a factor. And I'm sitting there waiting for a ****ing year!! A higher riot factor is optimal for duel play because there's only two people which means lots of cities. I get really annoyed with the tedious stuff. The only things I have checked on my city report options is warn when city in disorder and warn when city improvement has been built. And I went 2 months of letting people host because I had a LAN connection that wouldn't let me host.

I fail to see how this is so valuable information. "As much as you try to minimise the advantage, fact is you had valuable information on your altered rules text that was not shared with your opponent (can we check the chat logs on this too EoN?)." Is this really going to alter the way my opponent plays? Would it have kept AH from getting boxed in? Was riot factor the reason he only had 6 ciites? I think not.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Eyes Of Night (edited October 02, 2000).]</font>

[Eyes Of Night]

I decided to play a game against the AI 1 on 1 usual settings except with the riot factor at 14. Now you might say this doesn't reflect on playing a human opponent. Well actually if you're talking about AH as a human opponent it does. This was actually a smaller map than the one aginast AH. The on against AH was 50X60. I saved every so often to document the effects as I went along and here is how it turned out. Once I turned monarchy I had only 1 turn where my techs took 4 turns, the rest of the time was 3 turn techs. I have the save of the turn it took 4 turns. I was making so much money from my cities that I had at one point nearly 1000 gold at about 2000BC. I went ahead and bought HG. I could have bought it earlier, but I neglected to do it. In the end I stopped at 1300BC. Here are the stats: 4 turn discoveries, 65 gold per turn, 51 cities with lots of settlers about to build cities, researching gunpowder. NOw tell me the difference between this game which has a lower riot factor and my game with AH that has a higher riot factor? You might say the AI was far easier. Actually the AI had 6 cities when I stopped, the exact same number as AH in our game. In fact I destroyed 2 of it's cities and I never destroyed any of AH's which means that the AI was actually expanding better than AH did. Not only that it was practically taking out pikemen with warriors whereas AH was wasting hordes of elephants on a walled city with pikemen. So then I want you to explain to me how riot factor makes such a huge difference in the game if I end up with the same stats as I do with a higher riot factor and I want you to tell me how AH would have played far better if he had known the riot factor was set higher. By the way, I have the saves of my game with the normal riot factor. It consists of 7 saves if anyone wants to see them.

[Ming]

EON... you seem to be missing the point. I don't think ANYBODY claimed you wouldn't have won without the riot factor being changed. And, I don't think anybody is saying that you aren't a good player who probably wins most of the time on the game settings that you guys like to play.

The point is that you made a change in the rules file and didn't bother to tell your opponent so that he could take advantage of it. Now, your experiment doesn't address that point

I would imagine that you would kick AH's butt across the room 10 out of 10 times on those settings. And, you would do the same to me 100 out of 100 times (well, maybe I could get lucky once if you would have an absolutely terrible start) I'm not fond of those settings, and have very little experience at them. Plus, even if I did, I should still be an easy foe based on what I know of your skill.

But Damn... CHANGING THE RULES FILE, AND NOT TELLING YOUR OPPONENT IS JUST FLAT OUT WRONG! That's the point

[Carolus Rex]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Ming on 10-02-2000 02:05 PM</font>

But Damn... CHANGING THE RULES FILE, AND NOT TELLING YOUR OPPONENT IS JUST FLAT OUT WRONG! That's the point
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Sure thing! How can there even be a debate about this?

Carolus

[Eyes Of Night]

It's real easy to debate this. It's not cheating. And my opponents aren't going to change the way they play based on something as simple as this. More players than you think do the same thing I do on league. By the way, I played AH on 2x1x too. Even then he had 6 cities and I didn't even box him in.

[Ming]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>&lt;font size=1&gt;Originally posted by Eyes Of Night on 10-02-2000 03:45 PM&lt;/font&gt;
It's real easy to debate this. It's not cheating. And my opponents aren't going to change the way they play based on something as simple as this. More players than you think do the same thing I do on league.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

It's not cheating????? HUH?????
Now, when you say more players do the same thing, are you saying that people change the rules files AND DON'T TELL THEIR OPPONENT???????? Is it the same change, or other changes.

The change you made is suited to your style of play. It allows more cities/population before unhappiness occurs. Tell me how this ISN'T AN ADVANTAGE FOR YOUR STYLE!!!!!!!
And, the other person (THAT DOESN'T KNOW) is preparing for unhappiness based on what HE THINKS THE RULES ARE.

Oh please... and just because other people do it don't mean that it isn't cheating.

When you play a game, you always agree on what rules you are going to play up front. To change the rules file and not tell your opponent is just pure and simple cheating.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Ming (edited October 02, 2000).]</font>

[arii]

Now a change in the rule.txt.
What next?
Don't tell me it does not give you an advantage when there are changes in the rule.txt that the opponent is not aware of. This is BS.
Stop the BS and excuse making.

[arii]

Now a change in the rule.txt.
What next?
Don't tell me it does not give you an advantage when there are changes in the rule.txt that the opponent is not aware of. This is BS.
Stop the BS and excuse making.

[Spider]

Once a cheater, always a cheater.

Why was anyone giving him the benefit of the doubt? He doesn't deserve it. Do you really think this character has scruples?

Do you really think this is the only change he's ever made to his rules.txt? How hard would it be for him to change the attack bonus of all units to 200% or something else that wouldn't be noticed very easily but would make a tremendous difference?

Another thing that I find very interesting is that it was mentioned,(I believe by Moker)that when Eyes hosts, the game will frequently say something like, *Waiting for players to join game in progress* at the START of the game. I wish I had Moker's exact quote on that, but I see he's edited his posts and that particular accusation doesn't seem to be there anymore.

What I want to know is, is this the tip-off that someone is loading a pre-made world rather than a random map? Could Eyes be loading the game in scenario mode and giving himself a much better starting position than his opponent?

I've never noticed a difference in the game messages between a continued game and a fresh start, but apparently there is one?? Could someone please verify this. One of my biggest beefs with this game is that it's possible to load a contrived position, thus giving the host a tremendous advantage (over and above the advantage the host already has). But can this cheat be avoided, now, by paying attention to the start message????

I'm not 100% certain it was Moker who brought this accusation up, but it certainly is odd that the accusation is no longer there. What's up with that? It was either in this thread or the one about Horse and Hydey hitting the zone, but when I went to look for the exact quote it was no longer there. Did he think better of revealing this "trade secret" or did he simply wish to retract an unprovable accusation?

[Ming]

Just save the game every turn... and if you think something doesn't smell right, check the turn by turn saves at the end of the match. It's teadious, and you might not know how some one cheated, but it becomes very apparent if someone did. And then, never play with the person again

Now, changing rules files changes the rule for both people. But you can best take advantage of it ONLY if you know the rule has been changed. Heck, somebody could change the attack strenght of archers, and I might not notice because I very seldom build any. But, I might catch on when archers started taking my fortified vet phalanxs off mountain tops

[Chuckles39]

that accusation was made by me...
in the hydey thread...
eyes is a cheat...
always has been, always will be...

i played him, got the "waiting your turn to join" message, and knew immediatly that i was going to lose. still i played, and he boxed me in quick, and just expanded...

i did well, considering i had as many cities as him...
i almost had the great wall built, when he stated that the great wall is unfair in a "no city bribe" game...

i didn't want my points, i just wanted to play him, to see if he changed at all...

once he tried to prove that he doesn't cheat, so he REVEALED THE MAP TO ME DURING A MULTIPLAYER GAME...
if he could show me the map, he could certainly show himself while playing against someone...

EYES IS OVER........

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Proud Member of Sayen, what about you?
Master of my Domain...

[Spider]

Ahh, thanks Chuckles39, I skimmed that thread looking for the quote, but obviously didn't look hard enough. (Sorry, Moker, didn't mean to put words in your mouth.)

So... that's the tip-off that someone is loading a bogus starting position?? Thanks for the tip.

[Berzerker]

EoN - <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>And my opponents aren't going to change the way they play based on something as simple as this
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I would... While I am building temples and warriors for martial law and happiness, you would be building settlers and military units for expansion and attacking. I cant believe you dont tell people about these changes

[Alexander's Horse]

Actually I did try to change my style of play and copy what he was doing, that's why we played several games. But what really stuffed me was that he would find my cities incredibly fast and bottle me up. It was this in fact that prompted me to raise the rumours of cheating with him. It was like he knew my starting location I watched his units, even when he only had 1 or 2, head straight for my capital, even when it was in an obscure location

I believe that on a level playing field he is eminently beatable. His strategy has major weaknesses - but you have to be able to establish yourself first to exploit those weaknesses.

Another weird thing was I never saw a barb in any of the games I played with him. Usually, even on the restless tribes settings, it "barbarama" in a duel. You can't leave most of your cities undefended of course if barbs are a real threat. Were they switched off?




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Don't worry, I won't tell anyone. Your secret is safe with me.

http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum19/HTML/002208-2.html?71#71