The Sticky Mouse Senate - Succession Game

[Bloody Monk]

Micromanaging: An Attitude Adjustment

Originally posted by El Civ

BTW, do you (and B.Monk) ever use Capitalization in your games? I never have, save for one game when my science city had nothing at all to build for many turns between wonders and I used it to avoid micromanaging the one city.

"...micromanaging the one city."



Okay, that was over the top. But really, ONE city...

The game is Civilazation. Taking care of city needs is part of the game. People use the term micromanagement like it was an option, like it was a bad thing (like changing dirty diapers for someone else's kids), like it was beneath them and that they were somehow to cool to bother.

In Civ, you are the wearer of many hats...general, spymaster, tycoon, head of state, and, AND, city manager, among others. It may make your hair hurt to scroll through your cities adjusting workers, tickling units, or whatever is needed at that time, but it is part of the game. If you can't be bothered with taking care of business every turn, try setting a schedule...for instance, do a third of the cities each time on a rotation.

"It's just not fun doing that," or "I'm too lazy for all that detail work," people say. While I agree that the Prime Directive is to have fun, part of being creative is to find ways to make the "tedious" rewarding. And not taking care of the details can be down right sloppy.

I will give two examples and you can look at your other cities for more... I stoped looking after these two. Sticky Mouse has three elvi that could have been eins for how many turns??? (I've already commented on building Coloseum) Shorter Toga has an ein which could be working a square yeilding two food. Instead, there is no food surplus. But we have invested in a sewer!! The city could have been growing!! Also, why build refigeration when harbor is cheaper??

You asked for coment on your game choices and I offer this for your consideration. Please look past the hyperbole if it gets in your way of seeing the main point. Get an attitude adjustment. Micromanagement is fun and profitable, too.

[La Fayette]

Sorry, I played only 3 turns; technical problem: the game says no to switching to 1810AD after I played 1808 (perhaps the AI doesn't like my way of playing that turn )
Anyway, here is what happened in the meantime:

[La Fayette]

1802 Wool to StickyMouse = 54g; Salt to SM = 102g; Wool to Bombay = 424g ; Beads to Marseille = 102g.

1804 Discover Automobile; MassProduction researched;
'Julius' cavalry take Alexandria = 54g in plunder; Dye to Chartres = 190g; Silk to Babylone = 104g

1806 Motorways completed in SM; Oil to SM = 402g ; Dye to Lyon = 68g.

1808 No need to tell what happened , since I was compelled to save from the autosave.

(La Fayette, with best wishes to the next Consul)

[Bloody Monk]

@ La Fayette

I don't understand what the problem is from what you write. I clicked thru the turn,"no" for all, and the game turned over to 1810. In other words, the game plays for me, no problem.

Perhaps you need to reinstall the game (a corrupted file??). Maybe a restart will clear it up. Since your save plays for me, the problem must be with your software--I think. Do you want to try to clear it up and continue?? I don't mind and you only got a partial turn.

[La Fayette]

Bloody Monk
Glad to know it works for you.
I played 1808 thrice and that is enough for me.
Successor, please!

[Bloody Monk]

OK...I'll play tonight. Hope you get things worked out.

[El Civ]

Did I actually say I didn't want to micromanage one city? That really is over the top. Sorry but yesterday my brain was not working very well. I knew that Suffrage would not cause happiness, merely help it to continue while increasing military size. And when I read what I'd written I shook my head. Sigh.

Bloody Monk, I read your post twice and you have found a perfect example of one of my weaknesses--I checked several of our cities during game plays to see how they were doing. However, it did not dawn on me to tinker with specialists so as to boost food for a few turns and the like. I'm going to make a list of all the things I need to do for my next turn and will make sure that is on it. I like your idea of splitting cities up into thirds and taking care of them that way. I think I'll also start an SP game on deity and purposely play every turn through in careful manner to get used to the idea. I'd been playing on King level.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Micromanagement for Dummies... err, make that Lazies

Lazies like me


This is how I handle things, re: micromanagement.

First thing each turn: check the tax/lux/science rate. Make sure that we're not in a tax deficit, unless we have a huge treasury. Then I'll gladly run a deficit for a few turns, just to get a couple quick sciences or a few new citizens on the big cities.

Play with the science and luxury rates, and look at the attitude advisor screen with each tweak of the rates. Blue-white cities on the attitude screen mean the city will celebrate, gray-white means content, red means it will riot. Obviously in situations that require celebration, turn lux up to that point. See how much science I'm getting. At some point there is a tradeoff. I'll see if I could achieve the same # of turns per tech by lowering science, and also I'll try adding or dropping einsteins (and/or elvises) to achieve my goal.

That's the most basic thing. There's no reason to have science at 60% when it could be at 50 and still get the same # of turns per tech. Ditto, there's no reason to celebrate with 50% lux if all the key cities would celebrate at 40%. And also, a city with a huge population will probably NOT need those elvises to keep celebrating - certainly not all of them, anyway. If you put enough einsteins in the SSC, you may be able to jack up luxuries to make other cities celebrate and keep science advances coming at the same rate.

Second thing: Remember the SSC will often produce well over half the beakers your civ cranks out a turn. So as far as managing workers on terrain, yes, you should have workers on whales always, mines as opposed to unimproved grass... absent other considerations. But you'll get the most reward for your efforts if you do this sort of work in the SSC. For example: when celebrating, you might have to keep those new workers off grass - the AI will probably put them there before ocean, and you might need the arrows from the ocean to keep the celebration going. Or you might need to convert the new citizen to an elvis right away (so long as the food surplus is there) to maintain celebration. And so on.

Third thing: Do all the same work for your other biggest cities.

Fourth thing (if you can stand any more): Do all this for all 85 cities.

That was part A:

Part B... tickle production in the SSC and the big cities. A big city's caravans are worth much more on the market, so don't waste time letting them get built on their own. Don't let the SSC spend 11 turns building a Stock Exchange - build for one turn and then rush it the next. The money (and science) you make from the 2-10 caravans you'll build in the turns you save will be well worth the expense, I'll wager.

(Freights will build up fast this way, of course, unless you have a ship chain or a long railroad to get the freights delivered on the same or the next turn. Make sure that there's always a commodity supplied in the SSC, by delivering all your SSC's freights ASAP and running freights into the SSC where demanded.)

Be aware of time and cost for all cities and of the benefits of what you're building. A marketplace will only aid celebration if the city is producing at least 4 luxuries on its own. A marketplace won't even pay for itself if the city isn't producing 2 coins, pre-market. Obvious maybe, but also easy to miss if you're playing with the tax rates.

Anyway... that's a start

[El Civ]

Re: Micromanagement for Dummies... err, make that Lazies

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
This is how I handle things, re: micromanagement.

First thing each turn: check the tax/lux/science rate. Make sure that we're not in a tax deficit, unless we have a huge treasury. Then I'll gladly run a deficit for a few turns, just to get a couple quick sciences or a few new citizens on the big cities.

Makes sense to run a deficit for those reasons.

Play with the science and luxury rates, and look at the attitude advisor screen with each tweak of the rates. Blue-white cities on the attitude screen mean the city will celebrate, gray-white means content, red means it will riot. Obviously in situations that require celebration, turn lux up to that point. See how much science I'm getting. At some point there is a tradeoff. I'll see if I could achieve the same # of turns per tech by lowering science, and also I'll try adding or dropping einsteins (and/or elvises) to achieve my goal.

So you are double-dipping, so to speak. You are altering specialists in conjunction with changing tax rates in order to find the best mix. Of course, this would result in a headache if a city breaks out in revolt a couple turns later, right?
I'm also curious as to whether there is a formula to consider. Let's say I have 20 cities and each is size 5 or higher (of course they will vary in size I know). If I put a single ein in each city how much will that alter my tech rate? Is there an established formula that shows X number of eins will reduce tech discovery by one turn?

That's the most basic thing. There's no reason to have science at 60% when it could be at 50 and still get the same # of turns per tech. Ditto, there's no reason to celebrate with 50% lux if all the key cities would celebrate at 40%. And also, a city with a huge population will probably NOT need those elvises to keep celebrating - certainly not all of them, anyway. If you put enough einsteins in the SSC, you may be able to jack up luxuries to make other cities celebrate and keep science advances coming at the same rate.

Okay. If I have a huge population city and it is celebrating, will it celebrate longer if I throw in a few elvises? I'm not sure why I would want to do that but I'm curious to know if it would work. If I understand you correctly, the tax rate sliders are like a volume control and the city specialists act as a sort of graphic equalizer, fine tuning the tax settings. Although it appears that the specialists would actually more powerfully influence the tax settings than my simple example, allowing a lower setting than would be needed without them.

Second thing: Remember the SSC will often produce well over half the beakers your civ cranks out a turn. So as far as managing workers on terrain, yes, you should have workers on whales always, mines as opposed to unimproved grass... absent other considerations. But you'll get the most reward for your efforts if you do this sort of work in the SSC. For example: when celebrating, you might have to keep those new workers off grass - the AI will probably put them there before ocean, and you might need the arrows from the ocean to keep the celebration going. Or you might need to convert the new citizen to an elvis right away (so long as the food surplus is there) to maintain celebration. And so on.

Okay. To create specialists I always try to click on terrain that is less productive to me. For example, if I have 6 blocks of terrain producing food/shields/arrows I will pick the one that is producing 2 food and 1 shield over the others that are producing 2 of each, 1 food and 3 shields, 1 food and 3 arrows, etc. This is what I should be doing, correct? And would you also suggest clicking around upon terrain to find the best mix, or is that what you already said above?

Third thing: Do all the same work for your other biggest cities.

Fourth thing (if you can stand any more): Do all this for all 85 cities.

How do you guys stay married?

Part B... tickle production in the SSC and the big cities. A big city's caravans are worth much more on the market, so don't waste time letting them get built on their own. Don't let the SSC spend 11 turns building a Stock Exchange - build for one turn and then rush it the next. The money (and science) you make from the 2-10 caravans you'll build in the turns you save will be well worth the expense, I'll wager.

(Freights will build up fast this way, of course, unless you have a ship chain or a long railroad to get the freights delivered on the same or the next turn. Make sure that there's always a commodity supplied in the SSC, by delivering all your SSC's freights ASAP and running freights into the SSC where demanded.)

In running in freights to the SSC it opens up another supply of the SSC (even though it has delivered all 3 originally), right? Does it matter what the commodities of the incoming freights are or must they be food for that to work?

Be aware of time and cost for all cities and of the benefits of what you're building. A marketplace will only aid celebration if the city is producing at least 4 luxuries on its own. A marketplace won't even pay for itself if the city isn't producing 2 coins, pre-market. Obvious maybe, but also easy to miss if you're playing with the tax rates.

I've seen many mentions before of eins and elvises. Do you all ever use tax collectors in your games?

Thanks STYOM. I've printed this off for reference and it will sit next to my PC.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Re: Re: Micromanagement for Dummies... err, make that Lazies

Originally posted by El Civ

Makes sense to run a deficit for those reasons.

Obviously, if you're rushing to get something - a wonder, a particular tech - before an AI civ, you may want to go hell bent for science; this is usually when I run a deficit.

So you are double-dipping, so to speak. You are altering specialists in conjunction with changing tax rates in order to find the best mix. Of course, this would result in a headache if a city breaks out in revolt a couple turns later, right?

That's why you keep an eye on the city. See how full the food box is, how many turns until it grows. Or don't even worry about the food box, check the attitude screen each turn. The city will turn red on that screen the turn before it revolts.

I'm also curious as to whether there is a formula to consider. Let's say I have 20 cities and each is size 5 or higher (of course they will vary in size I know). If I put a single ein in each city how much will that alter my tech rate? Is there an established formula that shows X number of eins will reduce tech discovery by one turn?

Unfortunately no, because the amount of science needed per tech increases as the game goes on. And it doesn't increase in a linear way, either - check the GL for the exact progression of beaker needs per tech. I don't worry about that stuff mostly. I just put eins in cities that will get the most benefit from them - that would be cities that have an elvis (or elvii) that could be an ein, and in the SSC.

Okay. If I have a huge population city and it is celebrating, will it celebrate longer if I throw in a few elvises?

No. At least, not necessarily. Just put in as many elvii as you need to start it celebrating (this assumes you don't want to adjust the lux rate). Check the city each turn to make sure that (happies >= contents and specialists) with no unhappies. Or check the attitude screen. If you throw a whole bunch of elvii into the city in the start, yes, you could probably ignore it for a few turns - but you'd waste some production in that time.

If I understand you correctly, the tax rate sliders are like a volume control and the city specialists act as a sort of graphic equalizer, fine tuning the tax settings. Although it appears that the specialists would actually more powerfully influence the tax settings than my simple example, allowing a lower setting than would be needed without them.

Good analogy. Yes.

Okay. To create specialists I always try to click on terrain that is less productive to me. For example, if I have 6 blocks of terrain producing food/shields/arrows I will pick the one that is producing 2 food and 1 shield over the others that are producing 2 of each, 1 food and 3 shields, 1 food and 3 arrows, etc. This is what I should be doing, correct? And would you also suggest clicking around upon terrain to find the best mix, or is that what you already said above?

Yes... I mean, you want to do this to an extent, but not so much as to drive you crazy. You want to keep a food surplus to keep the city celebrating. In the early game, you want to max food, until city is size 2, and then max shields. You want to keep production at such a level so as there are few wasted shields - 10 or 20 or 30 /turn is ideal, because everything you build is a multiple of 10 shields. And so on. Different situations may induce you to maximize different terrain uses. But yes, generally, you should work the squares that produce the most total resources. That's why whales are so popular - food, shields, and trade all at once. No other square does that without work.

How do you guys stay married?

I'm ruthlessly single.

In running in freights to the SSC it opens up another supply of the SSC (even though it has delivered all 3 originally), right? Does it matter what the commodities of the incoming freights are or must they be food for that to work?

I'm not sure. I do know that if you meet every demand and supply the city has, it will usually free up some commodities to ship from that city. There's nothing worse than having a big SSC and nothing to build.

I've seen many mentions before of eins and elvises. Do you all ever use tax collectors in your games?

Almost never... just like capitalization

Thanks STYOM. I've printed this off for reference and it will sit next to my PC.

You're welcome. I hope what I said was mainly correct.... but I'm sure I will be corrected if it isn't.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Re: Capitalization

@ La Fayette

(I like my guilty little capitalization sin)

[Zedd]

Sorry for intrudeing once agin into another succession game.........But I like the articles

El Civ I wanted to share some of my experience with you....I had a game that had been a dream right from the start, 3 techs to start, 2 setlers and alot of land between me and my AI counter parts. Soon I had 50+ cities and all over 20 pop. By 800BC I was just itching to build my space ship but couldn't (I think you have to wait until 1ad to start that build) So my little democracy decided that with 800 years until we could reach for the stars.....We would reach for something a little closer

This is where i broke the rules, every spare citizen was either elvis or tax collector, My science was 1/8 turns with no eini's and i was on future tech 6, so My taxes and luxuries were maxed science set to 10% and I went to war!!!!!!!!

Conclusion I ruled the earth in 1AD and landed on AC soon after. My treasury had produced nearly 10,000 every turn for 800 Years and I had bought most of the planet, what I couldn't buy was captured,and with 50% LUX and 3 elvi in each city no one was unhappy about troops away from home! In a case4 like this i think that capitalization and tax collectors can work out.........however i would prefer the frieght to capitalization.

[Bloody Monk]

STYOM--

I believe you are next. I left build orders open (and a pile of cash) so you could chose your own path. I believe this an occassion for tax men-v-eins. The advance is in hand; it is just a matter of how much you want to have a start on the next one. Almost half our cities will celebrate at this setting--if you want. Another choice would be to ramp up science for a run to the stars. Your choice as to when or if.

I have tanks at the corners of our homeland so we should be secure. I have been building white goods (probably to many) to firm up our capabilities. The Egytians are no longer amoung the living...revenge for taking your Eye. The French and Indians are great for trade but they are getting "pissy". I have proceeded on the assumption that some French cities should be ours. There is a small potential difficulty as they are now immune to bribes (Demo). We have a small vet tank Corp moving their way.

I had three major goals for this turn:

A) White goods...I used trade proceeds to fund a huge building program and to grow. Our Pop almost doubled, probably will by the beginning of the year at hand. There is a bit more to do, but we now generate a lot of shields and arrows. Options abound for your turn.

B) The Egyptian Affair... They wanted war, I wanted to trade, they shoulda listened.
Thanks to our ample Corp of NON Cavalry and our Treasury, the Egyptians have passed into history. Trade was so good I was able to double the bribe and we still have a remarkable Reputation--down one notch to Questionable. Even so, the Senate never supports war; be careful of their peace-loving ways.

C) Finalize the "Trade Chain"...I am very pleased with this. There are now Ferry points, linked by Rail, at both ends of "Red Island" making a more efficient "chain". Two ships at the South End to ferry each way, each turn, a big land line in the middle, and the beginning of two chains at the North End--one to the Indians, French; one to our new Egyptian Province. That piece is still forming up, but shouldn't be a problem to work out.

LOG:

1810--Memphis Captured; Heliopolis and Thebes bribed. Elanphantine taken...the Egyptians are in a daze, wishing they were never born!! Spy rushed in Wasteland to deal with Barb Landing. Bribed a Chin camel outside Sticky Mouse (SM) to be delivered later for three or four times the cost.

1812--Computers > Recycle. Begin vast building project--many Coloseums, Sewers, Mass Tran, etc. Bribed another camel, Bab I think. Always tickle the freights.

1814--Gems (SM ne Chin) > Tours, 1356g; Build SETI in SM. My predecessors thoughtfully left me nearly two dozen food vans--Thank you very much...the excess are waiting in The Institute for Apollo.

1816-- Recycle > Mobile War; Gold > Delhi, 408g; 200g Hut

1818--Bribe Bab camel by SM...Oil to Monkfish, 346g; Cloth to Madras, 722g; oil to SM, 686g.

1820--Revealed Silk by mining Grass at Red Haven (4 Specials); China Tribe from Hut; 200g Hut; Monkfish vans-Dye to Orleans, 560g; Oil to SM, 576g. Build Recycle in SM. Discover Mobile War > Robotics.

1822--Barracks in SM, begin rushing tanks (no freights offered). Red Canal built (this was not necessary, in hindsight, but I thought we would be battling Egyptians much longer.) Gems to Rheims, 684g; Dye to Marseilles, 596g; Hides to Caralis, 376g....Egypt Cap taken after they tried a sneak attack; then the Senate gave them peace, so I double bribed Byblos, 552g; and Pi-Ram, 560g. Lost a dragoon to a Barb Hut...Ashes to ashes....

1824--Robotics > Atom...D-Bribed Giza,640g...Coal (SM-bribed) to Chartes, 990g.

1826--Rushing, tickling freights as per usual

1828--D-Bribe El-Amarna, 880g...100g Hut...Gold to Sen Beach 190g

1830--Spice to Orleans, 408g; Silver to Red Haven, 247g; Gems to Far Vill, 240g; Gold to Delhi, 648g.

1832-- Gold to Delhi, 420g; Silk to Bombay, 462g; Dye to Lager, 278g...D-Bribe Lisht, 210g, putting paid to their foolishness

There is probably much to complain about concerning my building Program as I tend to overdo in that area. Never-the-less, I gave myself vast Egyptian Estates for conducting such a grand Republican War (and I am slipping out the back door before the audits commence).

Lest I forget, I have spys waiting near Chartes, hoping the French sneak attack. Gaining that Fr canal city is the key to their Heartland without going the long way around.

This has been great fun, BUT, the turns are getting very long. Maybe after STYOM has his go, we will decide to do fewer each time. I look forward to seeing what comes next. I read with great interest the very nicely done posts on micromanagement while slogging thru my turn. I think STYOM is not so lazy as he previously claimed--very thorough.

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk

I am slipping out the back door before the audits commence).


This has been great fun, BUT, the turns are getting very long. Maybe after STYOM has his go, we will decide to do fewer each time

I think STYOM is not so lazy as he previously claimed--very thorough.

1) The Gits are away (no need to slip out the back door).

2) I did fewer, but I swear it was against my will.

3) I agree (perhaps he's lazy while playing, but he certainly isn't while posting )

[Bloody Monk]

@ La Fayette

Are you saying there is a difference between his walk and his talk???

Sure was a good talk, though.

Have you cleared up your problem???