OCC 2003 Comparison Game #2

[Straybow]

Well, after launching we can kick buttocks… no?

1768 Superconductor, trade for Polytheism

Why trading (which adds one to your tech total) instead of giving it away to your key civ? Unless you had no other choice but Polytheism and trading got it out of the way?

[Elephant]

Usually after Sup (occasionally after Pla) there has to be an off-path tech in order to get to FP. I like to trade for Cmn earlier (after someone ELSE kills off my Marco Polo) when I am forced off-path, so I can do Esp and be ready with some Spies when the time comes. If I have cranked down the research I will trade for a dumb tech instead. I traded for Pottery recently between Sup and FP, wondering if it would change the SSC commodities: it was so late in the game there was no discernable effect.

Solo - My "vote" is post your game in a new thread, call it OCC/EL Challenge, and we can let players decide which they want to try, then we'll compare results. Sounds fun.

[Elephant]

OCC 2003 #2

PreGame Analysis:
Hut(74,58)=seed 16
nearby Huts (80,58-close!), (88,54), (75,41), rest water
draw on MapEdit: seed=48, hidden is Whale, 2nd 4x (79,57)
continent #13
no free techs
Raging Hordes
restarts on
TOP5: #1/White=Rome, #3/Blue=German

Start Plan: pop hut & 2nd east, check other 4x plus SE, settle
Build Plan: Warrior-Library-Diplomat-Colossus
Tech Plan: Alp/Wri/Bro/CoL/Lit/REP/Cur/TRA/Map/Mas/Cst/Cer/?

4000BC- 1st Settler: Hut(74,58): Horse(NONE); Horse east
...2nd Settler southeast
...(79,57) 4x is grass! and (77,63) 3x too
3950BC- Hut(80,58): 50g (rats)
...TOP5: #2/Green=Babylon
DECISION:
(75,59) is Gold-Whale-(Buff)-(Silk),11grass,4ocean,6river,19Shields
(79,57) is Gold-(Buff)-Buff-Fish,7(+2?)grass,3ocean,20-22Shields
(77,63) is Gold-Whale-(Silk),12-14grass,2n-ocean,10river,19Shields
(+4 rivers,+1-3grass offset by Buffalo+ocean access?)
...found TENOCH at (75,59)+2F,4T,3Sh: start Warrior
start Alphabet
3800BC- Hut(88,54): Archer(TEN)- nobody nearby
3750BC- ALPHABET; start Writing
3400BC- TENOCH size 2, switch Pheasant to Gold: 4t@6b
3350BC- WRITING; start Bronze
3150BC- RB Library
3100BC- BRONZE; start CodeLaws
2850BC- meet Icy German: 6Sp,dem Wri for peace,Neut,exch Bro for Mas?no,gift Bro to Recep,ally?nothing2offer,end (Aztecs are Mighty=Orange)
2800BC- 1st Diplomat; CODE LAWS; start Lit
2500BC- Dip embassy Germans: Desp,62g,1city,5techs(got Cer,Mas),res CoL,WAR ROME! re-contact Enth Germ: 5Sp,gift CoL (pres res) to Worsh,ally?YES!!!
2450BC- LITERACY; start Republic!
2250BC- TOP5: Washington(2) is Barb!
2100BC- Barb uprising east of TENOCH: 2xHorse,Ldr disappeared
2050BC- REPUBLIC (missed by 2b!); start Currency
2000BC- Worsh German: 5Sp,exch Lit for CER-BUR,gift Rep,end
1950BC- Temple
1900BC- REVOLT: REPUBLIC T20S80
1800BC- German govmt Republic!
1600BC- Barbs land SW: 2xArcher+Ldr; CURRENCY; start Myst
1500BC- Germans get Maps from Romans, peace treaty
1350BC- Horse "captures" BarbLdr: 150g! RB Mktplace
1200BC- MYSTICISM; start Philosophy!
1150BC- Germans develop Iron! kill BarbLdr!
1100BC- TENOCH size 3
975BC- contact Roman Leipzig Cordial: 6Sp,dem Rep for peace,Enthus, gift CodeLaws to Worsh,ally?no use,end; Dip makes embassy Romans: Desp,172g,4cities,11techs,res Phil!
925BC- PHILOSOPHY; freebie TRADE; start Maps
900BC- TENOCH supplies Hides/Silk/Dye! contact Worsh Germans: 5Sp,exch Philos for MAPMAKING, Tra for MASONRY,sh maps, gift? 150g! contact Enth Romans: 6Sp,gift Philos to Worsh,sh maps,ally? dem Tra,YES!,gift?sympathy,goodbye
1st Dye caravan!
WLTCD in TENOCH!
start Construction
850BC- TENOCH size 4
825BC- TENOCH size 5
2nd Hides caravan
800BC- TENOCH size 6
775BC- TENOCH size 7, cancel WL
3rd Silk caravan
750BC- caravan meets Worsh Germ settler: 3Sp,exch?no,sh maps,gift?100g
725BC- 4th: Hides
700BC- Dye to Berlin(5/Dye/Cop/Wool): 160g/b,+5 (frees GOLD!)
(Berlin now Wool/GOLD/Silver);CONSTRUCTION; start Bank (vs Math-Astron)
675BC- 5th: Gold!
650BC- delay Hides delivery to preserve Gold demand
625BC- 6th: 2nd Hides
575BC- 7th: 3rd Hides
550BC- ARGH! Gold arrives, Berlin switches to (Dye)Cop/Wool! Hides to Berlin(6(Dye)Cop/Wool): 80g/b,+5
Berlin again Wool/GOLD/Silv! BANKING; start Medicine!
525BC- Gold to Berlin(6/Wool/Gold/Silv): 209g/b,+5(3rd!)
8th: 1st Food
500BC- MEDICINE; start Math
475BC- contact Worsh German: 3Sp,gift Cst,gift?50g,goodbye; Enth Roman: 6Sp,gift Cst to Worsh,gift?patience thin,goodbye (misers)
Germans report war with Romans!
425BC- Romans lose Neapolis to Barbs!
375BC- Silk caravan stumbles into Neapolis! between turns: Roman Legion wipes out Neapolis!
350BC- Germans get Bank from Romans for Iron, PEACE!
MATHEMATICS; start Univ
325BC- Romans start Marco Polo (uhoh)
300BC- Enth Rom: 6Sp,gift Med to Worsh,gift?75g,goodbye; Enth Ger: 2Sp,gift Myst to Worsh,gift?patience thin,goodbye; Indians start Colossus!!!
275BC- Silk to Rome(5/Dye/Cop/Silk): 240g/b,nochg!
UNIVERSITY; start Astron
250BC- start Shakes, 6 Food caravans (frees Silk!); chg T0S70L30 for WL
200BC- TENOCH size 8; RB Aquaduct; free Silk chgd to Wine!
175BC- TENOCH size 9; Roman govmt othro (finally!)
150BC- TENOCH size 10, Wine caravan
125BC- TENOCH size 11; Enth Rom: 6Sp,gift Univ to Worsh,gift?50g,goodbye; Enth Ger: 2Sp,gift Univ to Worsh,gift?patience thin,goodbye
100BC- TENOCH size 12, chg T20S80; Germans get Bridge!!!(hut?)
50BC- ASTRONOMY; start Chem (20th!)
25BC- Enth Ger: 2Sp,exch Ast(gulp) for BRIDGE,Worsh,gift?no,goodbye
1AD- (hey- what happened to Cumae's demand for Wine?)
20AD- Wine to Leipzig(3/Dye/Silv/Silk): 106g/b,nochg
60AD- Indians near Colossus!
80AD- KeyRd to Berlin finished: +7->+10! chg to Colossus, 4 Food caravans (Wool freed); CHEMISTRY; start Theory Gravity
120AD- Romans near MarcoPolo!
140AD- start MarcoPolo,1Food & 2 Hide caravans, disband Dip +140g
160AD-
==============
Marco Polo Analysis:
Enth Rom: Rep,300g,7cities,21techs,Res Econ,Peace Germ,War Ind
Neut Bab: Desp,323g,5cities,10techs,Res Cst,War Ind
Enth Ger: Rep,408g,1city,23techs,Res Sea,Peace Rom
Icy Amer: Desp,288g,3cities,11techs,Res Cur,War Engl(got Sea,Wheel)
Icy Engl: Desp,261g,4cities,10techs,Res Wri,War Amer(got Sea,Wheel)
Icy Indi: Mon,313g,4cities,12techs,Res NON,War Rom,Bab(got Iron)
Aztecs want Wheel and maps, give away Republic
==========================
...Icy Amer: 0Sp,dem Lit for peace,gift Rep,Tra,Cst to Worsh,
exch? too busy,sh maps,nomore
(Amer got 2 Settlers, Trireme out; Barb Wash size 4!)
...Neut Bab: 3Sp,dem Lit for peace,gift Rep,Tra,Cst to Worsh,
sh maps?no use; gift Phil,Wri,Map,sh maps,end
(Babs got 3 settlers,Indians landed NE coast)
...Icy Ind: 5Sp,war Bab?no,dem Cst for peace,gift Rep,Tra,Mys,
Phil to Worsh,sh maps,end
(Indians got 3 ships, no visible Settlers, lotsa trees)
...Icy Engl: 1Sp,war Amer?no,dem 50g?no,WAR (sigh)
(looks like English are closest...)
===================================
180AD- Enraged Engl: 0Sp,war Amer?no,dem Cst for CF,gift Rep,Wri to
Worsh,exch Tra for WHEEL,sh maps,end
200AD- THEORY GRAVITY; start Eng
280AD- Enth Germ: 1Sp,gift Wheel to Worsh,gift?patience thin,goodbye; Enth Rom: 6Sp,dem Ast to Worsh,gift?75g,goodbye
300AD- Recep Engl: 1Sp,dem Philos,gift Bridge,Bank to Enth,peace,end; Romans start Copernicus!
320AD- ENGINEERING; start San!
400AD- start Copernicus,6 Food caravans
420AD- Enth Ind: 4Sp,exch Univ for IRON,gift lots,sh maps,nomore; Enth Amer: 0Sp,exch Eng for SEAFAR,sh maps,nomore; SANITATION; start Invent
460AD- RB Sewers
480AD- Enth Rom: 6Sp,gift Eng to Worsh,gift?200g!,goodbye; chg T0S80L20 for WL
520AD- TENOCH size 14 (FBF)
540AD- TENOCH size 15; bribe Rom caravan 110g: Hides; produce Silver caravan! INVENTION; start Nav
560AD- TENOCH size 16
580AD- TENOCH size 17; RB Bank; GreatLibrary in Babylon
600AD- TENOCH size 18
620AD- TENOCH size 19; RB Harbor; Germ dev Nav! govmt othro (uhoh)
640AD- TENOCH size 20; Enth Germ: 0Sp,exch Invent for NAVIGATION,gift?no symp,goodbye; German govmt Monarchy (RATS)
start Physics
660AD- TENOCH size 21, cancel WL; RB Univ
680AD- PHYSICS; start Democracy!
720AD- 1st Caravel takes Dip&2xCamels
740AD- DEMOCRACY; start Mag
760AD- REVOLT (T20S60L20)
DEMOCRACY: T0S80L20
780AD- German govmt othro; 1st Settler in TENOCH; WLTPD!
800AD- German govmt Republic! (+16->+18!)
820AD- TENOCH size 21 again; bribe Roman camel 147g: Gems! Enth Ind: 4Sp,exch Invent(pres res) for ECONOMICS,sh maps,nomore; Wool caravan; MAGNETISM; start SteamEng
840AD- TENOCH size 22,+0F chg T10S90; Barb Frigate approaches!
860AD- 3xBarb Legions land (also near Berlin)
880AD- bribe 1st BarbLegion 82g, kills 2nd: deep red; bribe 3rd Legion 82g,Frigate 102g, load Hides; STEAM ENG; start RR
900AD- Hides to Ashur(8/Cop/Dye/Silk): 360g/b,nochg
920AD- RAILROAD; start Indust
940AD- Silver to Babylon(8/Cop/Silv/Silk): 567g/b,nochg
INDUSTRIALIZATION; start AtomTh
960AD- start RRing to Berlin, gift RR to all
980AD- Hides to Nottingham(6/Cop/Dye/Hide): 339g/b,nochg
ATOMIC THEORY; start Corp
1000AD- start Newtons, 8 Food caravans (Oil,Cloth freed!)
1020AD- Enth Bab: 5R,exch Dem for GUNPOWDER,nomore
CORPORATION; start Metal
1040AD- Cloth freight
1060AD- METALLURGY; start Explos
1080AD- Barb Frigate approaches TENOCH; Babs dev Explos; Oil freight
1100AD- disband Caravel; 3xBarbLegions land from BarbFrigate
Germ govmt othro (again?)
EXPLOSIVES; start Elec
1120AD- bribe BarbLegion 82g (other doubled); kill other 2: yellow; gift Explos to all; German govmt Monarchy (again?); 1st Engineer in TENOCH
1140AD- disband new Legion for Transport
ELECTRICITY; start Refine
1160AD- 1st Transport takes Wool,Gems,Oil
1180AD- REFINING; start Steel
1200AD- Cloth freight to Hispalis(4/Dye/Wine/Cloth): 240g/b,nochg
1st POLLUTION
1220AD- STEEL; start Combust
1260AD- bribe Barb Crusader 82g; Enth Rom: 6R,exch?no,sh maps,gift?200g!,goodbye; German govmt othro again!
COMBUSTION; start Auto!
1280AD- RR path finished: +24ea!!! Wool caravan to Ellipi(6/Cop/Dye/Wool): 382g/b,nochg (Ellipi now Coal/Wool/Silk); Gems caravan to Ur(8/Dye/Cop/Coal): 215g/b,nochg (Ur now Coal/Cop/Wool); Oil freight to Ur(8/Coal/Cop/Wool): 322g/b,nochg
Hmmm: German Eng on my RR,extension appeared suddenly...
1300AD- ah: Frankfurt just off bend of my RR...
AUTOMOBILE!!! start Refrig
1320AD- RB Superhighways; Enth Germans: 0R,gift Auto!,sh maps,goodbye
1340AD- Germans near Darwins! REFRIGERATION; start Conscr
1360AD- bribe Rom caravan 147g Wool; Enth Germ: 0R,gift all but Combust,gift?no,goodbye; WonderBread frees Oil&Gems!
Darwins in Berlin! get Conscr & Chivalry! chg to WomSuf
Gems freight; CONSCRIPTION; start MassProd
1380AD- disband Settlers for Eng, chg T0S80L20 for WL, 2nd Eng in TENOCH, WLTPD
1400AD- capture BarbLdr west of German-land: 150g; Oil freight
MASS PRODUCTION; start E2
1420AD- TENOCH size 21 again, cancel WL; Worsh Germ: 0R,exch MassProd(pres res) for CHIVALRY,goodbye
Germ chg to SunTzu, GOVMT OTHRO!
ELECTRONICS; start Ldrship
1440AD- bribe Rom transport 157g (supp), bribe Barb Crusader 82g NONE; RB MassTransit
SunTzu in Berlin; Germ chg to WomSuf; govmt Democracy!!!
LEADERSHIP; start Tactics
1460AD- bribe Eng transport 185g:NONE!
TACTICS; start MTools
1480AD- bribe Eng transport 272g:NONE; RB Factory
1500AD- disband supported Transport, RB Hydro
MACHINE TOOLS; start MobWar
1510AD- disband 2nd supported Transport, RB SuperMkt; bribe Amer Transport 175g, bribe Amer Destroyer 291g, bribe Barb Ldr/Dip 61g
MOBILE WAR; start Min
1520AD- ...bribe Rom Eng 736g NONE!
1530AD- Oil freight to Ur(8/Dye/Cop/Silk): 660g/b,nochg; chg T80S0L20 1Sci for WL
MINIATURIZATION; start Computers!
1540AD- bribe 2nd Rom Eng 792g; Wool caravan to Ur(8/Coal/Cop/Wool): 880g/b,nochg; Gems freight to Ur(same): 660g/b,nochg
COMPUTERS; start Rob
1550AD- TENOCH size 22, RB ResLab
1560AD- TENOCH size 23; bribe 3rd Rom Eng 492g; RB OffPlatform
Babs dev Combust (uhoh)
ROBOTICS; start NucFission
1570AD- ...TENOCH size 24,+1F, chg T20S80 (time to start Foresting)
WonderBread frees Oil&Gems! Gems freight
NUC FISSION; start NucPower
1580AD- GERMANS DEV COMMUNISM (rats); Oil freight
NUC POWER; start Laser
1590AD- start Mining Riv-Grass/Plains for Forests; RB ManufPlant
LASER; start Flight!
1600AD- FLIGHT (cancels Colossus); start Pottery (chg commodities?)
(Trade dropped from 227 to 176)
1610AD- Dip embassy English; Oil to Ur(8/Coal/Cop/Wool): 336g/b,nochg; Enth Bab: 5R,exch MobWar for POTTERY,sh maps,end; Dip embassy Babs
start Radio
1620AD- Oil freight!
RADIO; start AdvFli
1630AD- Gems to Ur(8/Coal/Cop/Wool): 336g/b,nochg
Gems freight
ADVANCED FLIGHT; start Rocketry
1650AD- Worsh Ger: 1R,exch(Radio-no)AdvFli for COMMUNISM,sh maps,end
ROCKETRY; start SpaFli!!!
1660AD- Oil to Ur(same): 336g/b,nochg; Gems to Ur(same): 336g/b,nochg
SPACE FLIGHT; start Plastics
1680AD- PLASTICS; start Super
1690AD- RB StockExch; chg T70S10L20 8t&WL
1700AD- start Apollo, 2 trucks, RB 2000g (Oil&Gems freed!)
1710AD- TENOCH size 25; Gems freight
1720AD- TENOCH size 26; bribe Rom Dip 139g; Oil freight!
1730AD- TENOCH size 27,+0F; disband 2 supported Eng
1C:Prop
1740AD- TENOCH size 28,-1F,chg T90S10L0 all Taxmen; Rom em: dem SpaFli(NO),end alliance,Settler in Germany returned
2C:Fuel
1750AD- bribe Rom Dip 141g (hey: Transport at Bab-land returned too!)
3C:Prop
1752AD- 4C:Fuel
SUPERCONDUCTOR; start Esp
1754: 5C: Prop
1756: 6C: Fuel
1758: 1S
1760: 2S
1762: 3S
1764: 4S
1766: 5S
1768: 6S
ESPIONAGE; start Fusion
1770: 7S
1772: 8S
1774: 9S
1776: 10S
1778: 11S
1780: 12S
1782: 13S
1784: 14S
1786: 15S
1788: 1M
1790: 2M
FUSION; start Stealth
1792: 3M,LAUNCH: arrival 1807
avoided contact, built Spies,Armor,Fighter
1807 Landing AC

[Scouse Gits]

1.2. RULES
You are allowed to settle one city. You are not allowed to settle more cities or to get cities through conquest or bribery. It is of course not allowed to access the cheat menu. It is also not allowed to reload a game to change anything that did not go as you wanted it to go. There is only one occasion where reloading is allowed which is explained in section 1.2.2 (advanced tribes).

where does it say - upto launch?

[Zenon]

Originally posted by Straybow
Well, after launching we can kick buttocks… no?

1768 Superconductor, trade for Polytheism

Why trading (which adds one to your tech total) instead of giving it away to your key civ? Unless you had no other choice but Polytheism and trading got it out of the way?

I thought I could after launch. Thanks for the confirmation, Straybow! But I think I would have violated rules just to kick Barbarian Berlin. 3000 years of barbarism just had to come to an end in this once beautiful city.

About the tech exchange: Elephant allready gave the answer.

Zenon

[Zenon]

It´s good to see you back playing civ 2, Solo! And I think it´s time to congratulate you to the earliest landing. TimTheEnchanter and Elephant had very good games, too.

Originally posted by solo
Interesting games, and each one so much different, but still with most player landings clustered around 1800.

Exactly! One more reason for Elephant to complete one of these nice charts.

It might also be suitable for another EL game, if players vote to give that kind of game another go.

please go ahead

Zenon

P.S: I think I could provide some interesting starts, too. BTW, is there any reason why not to take a start on a created map (other than the unwanted knowledge of the creator)?

[solo]

It's fun to be back among the Civ 2 faithful. I found something lacking in RoN and the RTS genre. I will post a new thread shortly for another EL game, but hope that Zenon would follow that with one of his own starts. As for using edited maps, it was done more often than not in Paul's OCC games, so I can't see any objection to using one.

[Elephant]

I hate to buck the trend of these "blood-thirsty" OCC gamers, but I find myself agreeing with SG (MAJOR suprise!) that the time between launch and landing is not meant to be a release from the One City restriction. Certainly a lot of AI "retribution" can be permitted (I personally like to see how well I can preserve the AI's attitudes while adequately protecting my city), but the addition of extra cities changes the danger level of that in-between time. I have had at least two memorable deaths to overwhelming AI attack (well, in all honesty my defenses were a little weak) during that period. I think a valid OCC finish is the landing, not the launch. Otherwise we could be sending 15-1-1-1-1-1 ships off earlier and ignoring 30 in-between years...

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Elephant
I hate to buck the trend of these "blood-thirsty" OCC gamers, but I find myself agreeing with SG ... I think a valid OCC finish is the landing, not the launch. Otherwise we could be sending 15-1-1-1-1-1 ships off earlier and ignoring 30 in-between years...

I think Elephant "sticks the landing" with this comment.

Monk

[Scouse Gits]

Ah elephant - to paraphrase Clint Eastwood, "Just because we agree on something doesn't mean I want to stick my tongue down your throat."

Even my unquenchable thirst for infidel blood knows that OCC is not the place to enjoy it

Stu

[Zenon]

Well, if even the RAR Philosophy is begging for peace in this case I better give in!

No conquest after launch, then (unless, of cause, these bloody Barbarians take my trading partner again to spoil my game )

Zenon

[duke o' york]

No conquest after lunch!
I agree totally with this idea. Also no taking of cities whatsoever after lunch. Bribery's out too. It'd be easy to protect your city by buying another one close by and weathering the AI storm there, leaving your capital to see out the rest of the game peacefully. Once the launch has been made then you should be hurriedly buying up defenders to ensure you're still around to make that triumphant TV broadcast to your expectant citizens. :b

Now OCC conquest is another matter entirely.....

[Elephant]

Originally posted by duke o' york

No conquest after lunch!

Bad Pun Alert!

Now OCC conquest is another matter entirely.....

I've only seen one or two decent OCC conquest games; for one thing, Restarts would have to be Off. I've done some city reduction myself in OCC, but it is tedious killing the only defender and waiting till the flag goes up to kill it again.

[Elephant]

Up late trying to get the youngest to stay in bed...



EDIT: Grigor's stats updated (with some interpolation...)

[Old n Slow]

Hmmm,

I have some room to improve -- looks like I'm weak in a number of areas -- foremost the earliest game.