Did they mess up the science wonders?

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by debeest on 09-22-2000 12:56 AM Since libraries and universities only add, kcbob's calculations based on 12 beakers would actually produce only 72 beakers, not 81: (12 + 6 (library) + 6 (university)) * 2 (CO) * 1.5 (IN)

Dang Pentium III.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Chow Yun Fat]

Microprose had chosen to say that they've messed up the Civilopedia Entries.
For evidence, please check the archived thread. http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...29-000011.html

Look for the end of the thread.

[debeest]

Well, obviously SOMEONE made a booboo. I suspect the programmers, since in my opinion the later Wonders do tend to be more powerful. But I've also noticed that, in my games, there tends to be a period roughly corresponding to the dark and medieval ages when tech development seems to slow down just as it did in real-world Europe. Maybe Copernicus is actually intended to help us through that slow time.

Some good points have been made, but not connected up. As HsFB noted, libraries and universities and research labs only ADD 50% of BASE science (just as markets and banks and stocks and factories and power plants and mfg plants only ADD 50% of BASE). But Copernicus and Newton MULTIPLY the combined total. That's much more powerful. Since libraries and universities only add, kcbob's calculations based on 12 beakers would actually produce only 72 beakers, not 81:

(12 + 6 (library) + 6 (university)) * 2 (CO) * 1.5 (IN)

Also, everyone seems to have forgotten that the two Wonders are often found in different cities! If YOU don't build them together, the AI certainly won't. And in that case, it DOES matter which one is 2x and which is only 1x.

[Theben]

quote: Originally posted by Smash on 09-14-2000 10:59 PM Well,that may be a mistake of sorts also.Is it not possible that, in the concept stage,game designers wanted them to be SAME continent wonders? Hoover Dam does not supply power to Hawaii.Or Alaska for instance. Then,during actual programing,it was found impossible or too difficult to do?Keep in mind this was made eons ago in computer terms.

Nope: in civ1 Hoover's & JSB only worked on the continental level. If they could do it then, they could probably do it 5 years later.

More likely either 1) a case of manual being written before game finished, whereas writer had to rely on civ 1 for information, or 2) irritated players not likeing wonder that only worked on one continent. Especially when a dumb AI built it on a 1 city island. Of all the games of civ1 I played, I particularly remember a game where the Mongols built Hoover's on a 1 city island in the middle of nowhere. grrrrrrrrrrr........

[Sten Sture]

Tell me about it. I am trying to write my own civ3 using the rules.txt - talk about futility!!

btw - someone must have stolen my password and posted that I didn't realize Cope's was +100%. Of course I knew that... (The car has been in the garage being worked on so long I am forgetting how to drive!)

Happy Friday.

[Bohlen]

I'll second the motion that we need Civ3. Either that or a new Civ2 patch with some of these questions and problems confronted. Ahhh...to dream.

[rah]

Smash, I think it was more an oversight then a programming problem on the same continent issue based on the fact that each hex square reference coordinate includes the continent number which is used in other features. (i.e the goto command window will only list cities on the same continent as unit.) To program the wonder powers using the same concept, couldn't have been much harder. Probably real easy.
Lazy or careless. Take your pick.

RAH
Director of Application Development for a large research company.

[DaveV]

Well, how can I resist posting after a question like that? I'll agree with kcbob that it doesn't make any difference in the long run. The difference is during the time span when you have built Cope but not Isaac. Then, using kcbob's numbers, you're looking at a difference between 54 shields (if Copes = 100%) or 40 shields (if Copes = 50%). Multiplied over many turns, this could be a very significant difference.

I'd agree with Smash that this was probably a programming error. It can, of course, be fixed by fiddling with the rules.txt.

[Smash]

Man,I need civ3 to come out now.I'm making topics about civlopedia/manual errors

Some goods cases for it is right as is.But I still think it was a mistake.It just sits better the other way.

Yes it is kinda relevent to the time.A city will be bigger and better at the time of Theory of Gravity compared to Astronomy(generally speaking).So,one could say that Isaac may be cheaper or at least easier to build than Cope's.

But the civlopedia says so.I know ,I know.What about JSB and Hoover's??

Well,that may be a mistake of sorts also.Is it not possible that, in the concept stage,game designers wanted them to be SAME continent wonders?

Hoover Dam does not supply power to Hawaii.Or Alaska for instance.

Then,during actual programing,it was found impossible or too difficult to do?Keep in mind this was made eons ago in computer terms.

Why does Pottery allow me granaries,but Masonry allows The Pyramids which act as granaries?Something seems funny here.

WTF happened to The Oracle?In the original rules.txt it is not good at all.Why is it more than The Gardens?Even with altered rules.txt I know which one I'd rather have.This wonder was not thought out well.Seems more like a late change from something else.

I think there was many changes due to long days and programming limitations.

Can you say BORED?

[N35t0r]

No!

the percentage increases of libraries, universities, etc. are added up, then applied to the original number. Don't know about the wonders, though.

ie:
base science: 4
+ library: 4*150%=6
+ library&university: 4*200%=8
NOT 4*150%=6*150%=9

[Theben]

Whichever wonder is best depends on your situation.

FE, HG in the same city with the Colossus is a great way to insure WLT?days (esp. in Monarchy- gives Republic trade), but if you don't get it no sweat; 3 caravans are cheaper. HG & GW together are marvelous as GW forces peace while HG allows for rapid expansion (1st very unhappy becomes happy for some reason). But in the end you'll want MC.

That said I wonder if 3 solid trade routes per city isn't the best "wonder" of all. I've never been disciplined enough to find out.

[Bohlen]

I always tend to give the Civ programmers the benefit of the doubt when talking of programming mistakes or oversights. It’s nice to believe that Sid & Co. really intended on some of the game’s idiosyncrasies

With that said, it could make sense that Cope’s is cheaper, yet more powerful, due to “the age of discovery” that it represents. Convincing the world that the Earth is not the center of the universe was, IMHO, more enlightening than a theory of why we fall and stay on the ground. Of course, these two Wonders represent more sweeping change and breakthrough than just these two ideas, but I would say that the building upon an established science (Ike’s) is less influential and more difficult than the establishment of the science itself (Cope’s).

So, if you buy this idea, then maybe this is the way these two wonders are supposed to work. They either screwed up on the manual or programming, I guess. Take your pick.

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Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance

[Gatekeeper]

Smash, et al.:

Typically I will build only Wonders which have no expiration date. My reasoning for this is simple — the effects *never* expire, which happens a lot with Wonders available early in the game (Pyramids being a notable exception).

The only expire-prone Wonders I build are Colossus and Marco Polo's Embassy. Those two are key to making or breaking a game, particularly Colossus. I mean ... it helps having seven to 12 extra trade arrows in an early city, particularly the capital.

CYBERAmazon

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by DaveV on 09-14-2000 12:40 PM Then, using kcbob's numbers, you're looking at a difference between 54 shields (if Copes = 100%) or 40 shields (if Copes = 50%). Multiplied over many turns, this could be a very significant difference.

I think you meant "beakers" instead of "shields". But you do make a good point. I hadn't considered the difference on the intervening turns while you're waiting for the final numbers to get back in sync.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Bohlen]

Well, I'd say that looks right, kcbob. I'm not one to study the mathematics within the game, but just assumed your scenario would come out with different totals. We need a number cruncher here. Where's DaveV when you need him?

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Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance