The Sticky Mouse Senate - Succession Game

[Bloody Monk]

Re: Ha ha hee hee

Originally posted by Straybow
I think that tops any noob story I've ever heard—laughed myself silly

[kibitz] Bloody Monk:

A) Factories first. If nothing else, it takes fewer shield-heavy tiles to reach the nonpolluting limit, which frees up workers for trade tiles or specialists. Also the MT can be build faster after Factory, yes?

B) On the other hand, Supermarkets are half the cost of MT and can free up workers for shield-heavy tiles while you are building Factory and then MT…

C) Forestation provides 3 shields in 10/2 turns vs 4 shields in 20/2+10/2 turns for transforming to hills and mining (both assuming RR). You get a better return on investment and reap the benefit many turns sooner (even using multiple engrs).

Thanks Straybow...and I laughed my a** off over that story as well. Responding to your points...These seem more general, rather than specific to here and now in _this_ game...

A) Mostly these cities are working all squares already and these white goods should be "one turn and buy" at this stage with our trade profits. The thrust of my question was about the resulting pollution effects, especially if many turns came between the two improvements, however. We are getting skulls and have a global warming warning bulb, already. So, what about the pollution effects???

B)Again, in this specific case there are no workers to free up; all the squares are being worked in most of the cities that the question relates to. Also, these cities already have a MT, due to size. I think a Factory is more needed than food, given that just around the corner shields will be required to bang out the spaceship.

C)Mining for a forest!!! I would say a big DOH!!! if that wasn't such a lame, yesterday remark. I'm too stunned by my forgetfulness to think of a better expletive. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

Perhaps I am too anal about pollution. It just seems so inefficient to take Engr's off their jobs to deal with skulls when, by building in a different sequence, the "problem" would not be there. There is 240 tons of pollution now. What will be the effect when these Factories and the Man. Plant in Sticky Mouse come on line??? Skulls, maybe???

[El Civ]

Straybow, care to join the Whimsical Succession game? There are only 3 of us playing and we could use another good player (i.e. I am not a good player and am playing these games to learn).

[La Fayette]

BM
You ask 3 questions:

A) Factories before Mass Transit

Accepted wisdom: the yellow triangles indicate a risk of pollution (10% chance/triangle IIRC); the skulls mean pollution.
Several good players NEVER build Mass Transit or Recycling or the like (IIRC Ming is one of those). They say it's a waste of shields and pollution is simple and easy to clean with engineers.
I almost agree with them, but I usually build Mass Transit because I don't like the look of those skulls (really ugly aren't they? ). I build MT after Factory because it's done twice as fast (with help of Hoover Dam). I see many chimneys, but very few skulls in the meantime.

B) Supermarkets instead of Factories or Offshore Plt

Look at the saves:
________1832__1842__Under building
Super M___9____9______3
Factories__6____12_____5
Offshore___2____4_____6

In 5 turns, I built 6 factories and 2 Offshore (exactly as many as what had been built previously during the whole game) and NO SuperM at all .
Conclusion: it seems that I agree with you about shields; they are important because we are going to need quite a few to build SS parts.
Anyway we ARE celebrating, and that is why I have 3 SuperM under building in 1842, in cities that could not grow otherwise.

C) Transforming grass to hills

Straybow answered

[Bloody Monk]

@ La Fayette

Thank you for your answers...

A) OK. I'll look at that side of it. I've never tried out a strategy that allowed for uncontrolled 'triangles'; I just assumed they were bad and had to be addressed. Can you get multiple skulls per turn from pollution??? Why are triangles called chimneys??

I hate to lose the production due to skulls and the 'stop what the Engr is doing and run them over' to deal with the skulls; so, I probably over emphasize Mass Tran. The more shields with Factory first would mean more to me if I didn't rush the MT. One turn of half the shields more or less doesn't seem very much to lose where the GW bulb is lit...to me.

B)I was with you until the last sentence. Celebrating?? You have 20% Lux. Two of those cities have red faces and the third would celebrate only after firing the ein. Maybe you changed the slider to make it one turn science for the save, but you had higher Lux, that allowed celebration, when you selected SuperMarket??? Otherwise, I don't see the celebration...in fact, one city is in revolt with this level of Lux.

C)Yes indeed. He sure did ...at myself.

[Straybow]

Canals aren't my only madness…

Yes, my answers are generalized. I noticed many cities in the 8-12 size range already had a tile or two double irrigated, which usually means that the player is about to build SuperMs in those cities. I kinda assumed that in any very large (12+) city Factory would have been built long ago and MT built as soon as MP researched, and that the questions applied to large (8-12) and medium (5-8) cities.

(To digress a moment, I also note Engrs transforming plains. Again, 20/2 turns is too long for 1 extra food. Turning irrigated land to farm only takes 5/2 turns, and SMs are 80 shields. Only transform plains if desperate, and then only those that will become shielded grass.)

Little did I know that even giant (16+) cities didn't all have Factories yet! The answer for those cities is build both Fac and MT back-to-back. But wait, some of these giants have no shield-heavy tiles whatsoever! On a map with mostly grass and plains everywhere I start on forestation in the midgame. Large cities can afford to have a dedicated Settlers unit improving terrain. Every city needs at least 2 shield-heavy tiles.

Looking back to 640 AD (about when I would've started foresting) I see essentially the same forested areas, so nobody has been doing it. Look ahead to RR and choose tiles near or on the essential RR paths.

Nobody has been prospecting for hidden specials either, for shame! Learn the basic specials patterns (1-3-3-1 and 2-4-2) to help choose the best tiles to forest. Here's an example of a 2-4-2 pattern from the 640 save (with some units removed for clarity). Looks like China Road would have been better placed NE of the wheat to eliminate overlap and catch the special.

Spicealitum and Sarzana are on the upper side of a 2-4-2 pattern, Spicealitum becoming a 3 special location and Sarzana a double. The bottom of the pattern will give a special to Consul's Retreat. On the other hand, Sticky Mouse and The Institute are located on a 1-3-3-1 pattern and no new specials will be found. The two near Ides are so close to the Sarzana and Sticky Mouse patterns that they are probably the bottom of a 2-4-2 pattern in the sea (the map generator erases specials far from shore).

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by La Fayette
BM
You ask 3 questions:

C) Transforming grass to hills

Straybow answered

Okay, have a good laugh. But then, I have to ask you, Sir, where are the trees??? I think Straybow's point skewers you as well. You could have changed from transform to mine. Maybe it didn't occur to you either, emmh??

[Bloody Monk]

Straybow--

You said you would have begun reforestation much earlier...

You make a good point. We have all been guilty of not doing this sooner. Maybe one of the weaknesses of the Succession format is that such things can more easily slip between the cracks, so to speak. Anyway, we blew it and you nailed us.

I mined the grass at Red Haven to reveal a silk, but I don't have your "vision" yet. Are you suggesting that the yellow outlined squares are potential specials?? Can you get a special from non-shielded grass?? It seems I have much to learn about hidden specials. Thanks for your input.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Straybow

Nobody has been prospecting for hidden specials either, for shame! Learn the basic specials patterns (1-3-3-1 and 2-4-2) to help choose the best tiles to forest. Here's an example of a 2-4-2 pattern from the 640 save (with some units removed for clarity). Looks like China Road would have been better placed NE of the wheat to eliminate overlap and catch the special.

Spicealitum and Sarzana are on the upper side of a 2-4-2 pattern, Spicealitum becoming a 3 special location and Sarzana a double. The bottom of the pattern will give a special to Consul's Retreat. On the other hand, Sticky Mouse and The Institute are located on a 1-3-3-1 pattern and no new specials will be found. The two near Ides are so close to the Sarzana and Sticky Mouse patterns that they are probably the bottom of a 2-4-2 pattern in the sea (the map generator erases specials far from shore).

What do you mean by (1-3-3-1 and 2-4-2), describing specials pattern??? Pictures, if possible please, as I am slow it seems. More specifically, how do you know where to look for the next set of four?? I can find the missing one w/in a group, but I am stumped trying to locate where the pattern will repeat.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

An update...

I've played 8 of 10 turns and should be able to post the rest within 24 hours...

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Okay, have a good laugh. But then, I have to ask you, Sir, where are the trees??? I think Straybow's point skewers you as well. You could have changed from transform to mine. Maybe it didn't occur to you either, emmh??

Sorry, BM, I chose the wrong smilie to express what I felt. I didn't intend to laugh at you at all (the only one I laugh at is myself, and I would certainly not laugh at someone asking intelligent questions in order to improve his gameplay). What I felt was the pleasure of seeing someone else interested by your questions that I found very much on topic.

In fact, I don't agree with Straybow at all (in that matter of foresting big cities , though I agree very much with canals and with discovery of hidden specials ... and certainly many other points).
Look at Sticky Mouse: a mined hill in the north provides 3 shields (exactly what a forest with RR would provide). This means 2 more shields than a plain, and those 2 shields become 4, with help of factory and Hoover Dam. Now if it were a plain instead, it would provide one more food (perhaps one more in size for the city) and 3 trade arrows, which means 24 BEAKERS (with help of Lib, Uni, SETI, Cope and Isaac).
4 shields or 24 beakers? What do you choose?

More generally, a square with forest and RR provides 4 more shields than an irrigated plain and the plain provides 1 more food and 3 more trade arrows (Rep or Demo + Highways), which means 7.5 gold (with MP, Bank and SE). I usually choose the plain (in big cities with full equipment).
But I am very fond of smaller industrial cities, size 7-8, providing at least 27 shields, which means 1 tank or 1 SS part in 3 turns; equipment required: 1 factory (+HD); that's all; ...and no pollution (you would enjoy that ), no more than a yellow triangle now and then.
BTW, the name 'chimney' for those triangles is in my French guidebook, but the city screen shows a '!' (warning sign). Probably the authors were unsatisfied with the picture of chimney that they were shown, and chose the warning sign instead.

[La Fayette]

STYOM
I am fairly sure that Straybow would enjoy your mining around the glorious city of Lucky Git.

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk

Can you get multiple skulls per turn from pollution???

B)I was with you until the last sentence. Celebrating?? You have 20% Lux. Two of those cities have red faces and the third would celebrate only after firing the ein. Maybe you changed the slider to make it one turn science for the save, but you had higher Lux, that allowed celebration, when you selected SuperMarket??? Otherwise, I don't see the celebration...in fact, one city is in revolt with this level of Lux.

A) Never more than 1 skull/turn from pollution AFAIK.

B) You guessed right: I changed the slider just before saving, in order to show that we managed 1 tech/turn.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

1842. Time to reach for the stars!

Goals:
Acquire remaining techs needed.
Start & finish Apollo
Get as many cities producing 20+ net shields as possible (Factories)
Stockpile caravans.

1842: Some factories/offshore platforms are rushed. We'll need Freights aplenty to keep our deficit under control (taxes left at 0.2.8 for 1 tech/turn)

1844: Amphibious Warfare>Rocketry. Dye>Madras 141 g. Taxes adjusted to 4.2.4. due to my screwing up the shipchain

1846: Science reajusted to 0.2.8. Gems>Monkfish, 78g. Dye>StickyMouse, 202 g. Coal>IdesofMarch, 264g. Copper>StickyMouse, 382g. Oil>StickyMouse, 567g.

1848: Rocketry>Space Flight>Plastics.
Gems>Monkfish, 216g. Dye>Bombay, 288g. Gold>Delhi, 54g. Coal>South Senate, 192g. Copper>Chartres 35g, Oil>Bombay 246g, Cloth>Bombay 276g, Hides>Bombay 115 g.

1850: Plastics>Nuclear Fission
Dye>Bombay 116g, Spice>Bombay 30g, Cloth>Bombay 278g. Oil(d)>StickyMouse 720g. Gold>Senators Beach 250g.

War with Babylonians.

1851: Nuclear Fission>Nuclear Power. Cloth>Bombay 131 g. Taxes adjusted again to 4.2.4.

1852: Nuclear Power>Laser. Apollo Program built in The Institute.
Gold>Senators Beach 78g, Cloth>Bombay 278g, Coal>Chartres 44 g.

1853: Oil>The Institute 520g. Salt>Delhi 520g.

1854: Laser>Combined Arms (no other options).
Salt>Delhi 118g, Cloth>StickyMouse 187g, Wine>J'Accuse 184g, Dye>Sarzana 330g. Beads>Lager 35g.

1855: Combined Arms>SuperConductor

Imagine that; a sneak attack by the AI (French).

1856: Rushing of various spaceship components.

STYOM will leave it to his successor to launch the ship.
******************
OK.... we're quite close to being done. I did not do several things:

1) I didn't mine as per Straybow's specials pattern - too confusing for the likes of me. I just mined where needed to bring production to 20/40/80 multiples.
2) I did not stockpile tons of caravans to build a minimal ship in 1 turn. Had I done so, I don't think we'd have the techs needed to be where we are now.
3) I did not manage my Freights too effectively. However, we'll be getting Superconductor next turn and Fusion within another turn (by jacking up the science rate next turn - we don't even need Freights to get it.
4) I did not let the AI steal any techs. There are a few barricades between us and the Chinese, French, and Babylonians. Watch out for those dips - expel 'em!

Other notes - we shouldn't need to start any more Components for a fast ship - 8 are built and 8 building. Probably some Structurals could be rushed effectively. Sticky Mouse is producing 80+ shields, so that's a good place to build Modules.

[Bloody Monk]

Pollution and Skulls

This last save by STYOM is very interesting to me in relation to the discussion about Pollution and Skulls.

First you tell me that a large number of triangles are nothing to worry about. And I thought, OK, especially as, I am informed, you will only get one Skull per turn ("IIRC"). But as I look over STYOM's save, I see two skulls which are being ignored by available Engr's doing other things in the area. And I thought Skulls were supposed to be dealt with chop-chop.

BTW, I clicked enter to see where things would go. Three new skulls came up!! So, it's definitely not "only one skull per turn."

So just so I'm clear on this...
A) Don't you lose production from a square with a skull??

B)Should you immediately deal with a skull??...send two Engr's or one that has preworked?

C)How many skulls for how long before you get Gobal Warming??

Thanks. I'm just trying to understand.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Re: Pollution and Skulls

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
This last save by STYOM is very interesting to me in relation to the discussion about Pollution and Skulls.

It's always nice to be interesting

First you tell me that a large number of triangles are nothing to worry about. And I thought, OK, especially as, I am informed, you will only get one Skull per turn ("IIRC"). But as I look over STYOM's save, I see two skulls which are being ignored by available Engr's doing other things in the area. And I thought Skulls were supposed to be dealt with chop-chop.

That's them, this is me. If you want to take the advice of folks who mine grass looking for silk and send duplicate railroads through bad terrain because it's the 'optimal trade route', that's your headache!

Seriously, the skull in Egypt is on rough terrain, so it's taken a bit more time to get to that one. I do clean up skulls, but I don't drop everything to do so.

BTW, I clicked enter to see where things would go. Three new skulls came up!! So, it's definitely not "only one skull per turn."

One skull per city per turn. Not one skull per turn.

So just so I'm clear on this...
A) Don't you lose production from a square with a skull??

B)Should you immediately deal with a skull??...send two Engr's or one that has preworked?

C)How many skulls for how long before you get Gobal Warming??

Thanks. I'm just trying to understand.

Well, IMO...

a) Yes, all production (food/shield/arrow) in the square is halved, rounding down, I think.

b) I send 2 engineers. I try to do it immediately, but I don't drop everything to do so. A skull or 2 is no big deal to me.

c) IIRC, any time there are 8 or more skulls there is a chance of global warming.