Modifiers for Attack/Defense

[ruoxiaohai]

What is the order that they come? I mean, say I have a Vet. Knight in a city w/ city walls on a hill.
Def 2
Vet=*1.5
City walls=*3
Hill=*2, but what order?
If there's any other bonus I've left out feel free to add it in. Thanks.

[Scouse Gits]

It doesn't matter!

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
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[Albert B]

Correct sir. Since multiplication is associative, 2*1.5*3*2 = 1.5*2*2*3 = 3*2*2*1.5, etc. = 18. I'm so sad I didn't get to it first!

[DaveV]

In case you're worried about integer roundoff (in which case the order would matter), all the numbers are multiplied by 8, so roundoff is to the nearest 1/8.

Edit: so a vet fortified pike, defending on a forested river against a crusader (2*1.5*1.5*1.5*1.5*1.5), would, I think, defend at a rounded-off 15.125 instead of 15.1875.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited January 24, 2001).]

[SilverDragon]

I always thought the knight would have a defense of 9 because you dont multiply the bonuses by each other. The basic defense is 2. for vet status, you add 1. for being on a hill, you multiply the basic defense by two, but you don't include the 1 from vet status, so you get +2 from the hills. Then you get +4 from the city walls, so his total is 2+1+2+4, which is 9.

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- SilverDragon, scourge of the western skies

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[Sieve Too]

Dave V has it right. All Attack/Defense bonuses are multiplied together, never added. There have been numerous threads and tests on this very topic.

[granite00]

I agree with SilverDragon. According to Sid Meier's Official Strategy Guide (page 270), the bonuses are added.

[DaveV]

The guide is wrong. As Sieve Too said, this has been tested lots of times. It's easy enough to check for yourself: just crank up a couple units in cheat mode. Take my example above: the vet pike would only be 2+1+1+1+1+1 = 7 if you add numbers. Try attacking him with three vet crusaders (5+2.5=7.5) on the same turn - I'll bet you a doughnut they all lose.

[ruoxiaohai]

Um....yeah! I knew that multiplication order doesn't count, but I was interested about stuff like pikemen. I guess my example wasn't very good.
And how do easier difficulty levels affect the combat outcomes?

[Chainsaw]

I`ve never been able to understand what kind of effect hitpoints and firepower have. How about modern units fighting obsolete ones? Does this affect attack/defense strength or HP/FP?

[Marko_Polo]

quote: Originally posted by DaveV on 01-25-2001 08:29 AM The guide is wrong. As Sieve Too said, this has been tested lots of times. It's easy enough to check for yourself: just crank up a couple units in cheat mode. Take my example above: the vet pike would only be 2+1+1+1+1+1 = 7 if you add numbers. Try attacking him with three vet crusaders (5+2.5=7.5) on the same turn - I'll bet you a doughnut they all lose.

If I remember right the pikeman has a defend advantage against attackers on horse, so this example isn't very good..

[DaveV]

Marko Polo - the pike advantage is a 50% bonus against units with one hitpoint and a movement of two. So one of the +1 or *1.5 modifiers accounts for that.

Chainsaw - there's no intrinsic advantage for modern units versus ancient; catapults can kill musketeers although the musketeers are a more modern unit. Hitpoints determine how hard a unit is to kill; firepower determines how much damage a unit does when it hits. A rough approximation in comparing strengths is to compare attack*hp*fp for the attacker against defense*hp*fp for the defender.

[ruoxiaohai]

Well, if you guys want to be anal, the pikemen ONLY get defensive advantages for unit numbers 16 to 21, I think. Either that or 22, I've never tried pike vs. Calvalry, but that's the way it goes. Also, many scenario designers have found that special unit "places" have advantages. Yeah, so how does difficulty level (chieftan-deity) affect the chances of winning?

[SlowThinker]

Subject: hit points and firepower are superfluous

BTW, I think the statement in the subject is valid. Two numbers would suit the purpose.

A,D,H,F are attack, defense, hit points and firepower.
In fact, you need to know A*F*H and D*F*H. You may imagine that
A*F*H replaces A and
D*F*H replaces D and
H, F are set to 1.

H/F lowers accidental behaviour of units only (H lowers it and F raises it).

It is my opinion only, I never discussed it, there may be some mistake in my thoughts.
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited January 29, 2001).]

[DaveV]

ruoxiaohai - barb attack factors are altered based on difficulty level, from 25% at chieftan to 150% at deity. I also have read that city defenders receive a 100% bonus at chieftan level.

SlowThinker - I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. FP does make a difference for defenders, and HP for attackers. I agree that raising FP increases randomness, and raising HP decreases it.