Using Modern Units

[Bloody Monk]

I have played hundreds of SP games over the years, some conquest but most AC landing. In conquest mode, especially after learning about "Clads and Crooks" assualts, the games never got far enough to learn, much less use, the post Flight, advanced naval techs. I suspect there are others lacking experience with these units.

After looking over the 1946 save in the Silly Rules Game I realized how much I need help with these issues. Here is a link to that save for those who haven't seen it.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=2507154#post2507154

Anyone want to contribute ideas about how to use and when and what to expect with some or all of these units and Improvements...

a) SAM's and SDI
b) Does building a nuke make an AI first strike more likely??
c) Should you build an SDI shield before building nukes??
d) Aegis Cruisers...in a stack, how much protection do they bring??
e) How do you use Subs against a fleet??
f) Bombers -v- naval units...
g) land -v- carrier based??
h) cruise missle usage
i) I don't know what else, you decide.

Don't be shy; and thanks

Monk

[debeest]

Just a couple of thoughts:

Instead of SAMs, build fighters. They defend very well, they can move around to defend where needed, and they serve as excellent surveillance tools.

Never ever let nukes happen, but if you can't help it, then build SDIs. Remember that the AI will always know exactly which cities have SDIs, and will never ever launch a missile except at a city without SDI. Remember, too, that the SDI is too dumb to realize that an SDI will protect every city within three squares of the city with SDI, and will launch missiles interminably at the neighbor cities that it thinks are unprotected.

Know that the AI will stack up cruise missiles to attack whatever powerful ship you build; but if you stack a bomber on top of the ship, the missiles will end their turns next to the ship and you can shoot them all down on your turn.

No wonder the AI has to have so many ways to cheat....

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks, debeest.

Does the AI not use cruise missles -v- cities??

The Info: Combat thread asserts that Fighters do NOT scramble -v- missles. If this is true then it would seem there is a place for SAM's, yes?? What does game experience show??

Monk

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Some random thoughts:

SDI + SAM = 5x defense versus missiles. Not much use to build, since the AI never nukes cities with SDI and never uses cruise missiles vs a city. However, if you use cruise missiles on cities, they won't do at all well against cities with both SDI+SAM.

Nukes are an excellent weapon against ship stacks, particularly those which have AEGIS ships in them. That's the only time I use nukes (no fallout if used at sea).

AEGIS Cruisers can generally withstand several Cruise Missile attacks. BB+AEGIS stacks are therefore quite useful in drawing AI attacks. The AI seems to be able to build Cruise Missiles very fast, and if you send a BB within range, it's bound to be attacked. Generally you can get the AI to waste a dozen or more CM's per turn.

I seldom use subs. Too slow, and the AI sees them automatically.

I rarely need to build carriers, as the oceans are usually not very wide. Like BBs, they are an instant CM target... and Fighters don't 'scramble' from carriers (they should!).

Bombers, I find, aren't all that effective against BBs - generally it takes 2 or 3 to sink a BB, and that's not a good use of the shields. Generally I prefer to deal with BB's with my own BBs, or sucker the AI into attacking a city with a coastal fortress... the battlewagon may win, but it'll be greatly weakened. Bombers are even worse versus AEGIS ships. They're decent against almost anything else. The AI never builds carriers, so I have no idea how well they defend.

Fighters can occasionally sink DD's and do well against subs and Transports. Stealth Fighters are great against almost anything.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

One more thing I forgot:

A REALLY good defense for coastal cities is:
Coastal Fortress
SDI
SAM Battery
AEGIS Cruiser
etc...

AI Bombers and other air units have no hope against an AEGIS with doubled defense due to SAM This was crucial when I played the Alien scenario.

[Scouse Gits]

There are other units after Crooks & Clads ?


I like cruise against cities - particularly when they can be built in the heartland and fly themselves half way round the world to the target

Stu

[duke o' york]

I only ever use cruise missiles against those annoying late-game barb explosions you occasionally get if there are too many mountains or hills within your territory and you can't be bothered to improve all the terrain. Using a cruise missile on the central square of these stacks (the one where the barbs originate) has often led to messages with things like "Military advisor reports: 42 units killed".
It can save a lot of time with stealth fighters trying to take them out.
The paradrop between cities feature is fun, but I never use them other than that. I never use the amphibious assault ability of marines, though I do like them as "defenders with teeth".
I never use subs in my normal games, but I had great fun playing as the Germans in the WWI scenario that comes with the game. Other than that, I love using stealth fighters to blow the hell out of a city's defenders and then cover up all of the fortresses and defensive points before the partisans are released. They can then just be shunted into the newly-captured city at the end of the turn.

[-Jrabbit]

I have 2 major uses for cruise missiles.
1. Lead unit for ciity attack. No land unit withstands them, and they take out the city's best defender.
2. Scout/explorer. With its extended range, the CM is great for uncovering missing AI cities, spotting an approaching armada, etc.
BTW, my experience is that it takes exactly 2 CMs to down a battleship.

Air defense -- build a Fighter (stealth if ya got 'em) in every city the AI can reach. They can scout every turn, and are exceptionally good defenders.

Bombers -- They're expensive, but I still love 'em. Just remember to use your spies to ID those pesky fighters first. When I'm financially flush, I like to use alternate-turn bomber runs to empty a city, using them as placeholders over good defensive positions so the resulting partisans are poorly deployed. then my ground troops (or paratroops -- another fave) -- waltz in.

Submarines -- pretty useless without Magellan, but their fighting power makes them useful as an offensive extension of the coastal fortress for cities near the enemy.

The offense-as-defense...
In the late game, use fighting units to defend your cities against ground and naval forces. You can finance a fighter/sub defensive combo for a city by selling off the walls and CF. Add a cruise missile to act as your spy satellite/radar. Then build your missile defenses as needed.

Now I have a question for the group.
What do you think of helicopters? I find them ineffective on both offense and defense. Yet the AI likes them, and seems to use them with good effect against me.

And don't forget the blitzkrieg specialty item -- Howies!
Howies, howies, howies!!!

[duke o' york]

Choppers are useless, but the AI never crashes them. I reckon that they have their health bar reduced for a turn's worth, but then stay like that for as long as the AI cares to use them. I've only ever seen them on full, almost full or dead.

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks everyone!!

This is a lot to digest and I have to scoot off now so just a few quick hits...
a) If true, this is valuable news that AI do not use Cruise Missiles -v- cities. Is this the common experience??
b) Choppers?? Very expensive for little value. Does anyone have a useful tactic for them??
c) Tanks, Tubes, and Stealth Fighters are my preferred units too. There has been plenty of discussion about them and I hope we can avoid going there.
d) Cruise Missiles that fly half way round the world is an AI feature is it not?? We humans can't do that can we??

Monk

[-Jrabbit]

a) I've never seen an AI cruise missile vs. a city.
b) Not me.
c) Howies!!! I love vet tanks, but I love "ignore city walls" even more.
d) We can't do that. Don't know if AI have such range, but am confident others here do...

Enjoy!

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Helicopters are pretty useless, IMO. Too expensive for what they can do. IF they were only able to be attacked by air units OR IF they had better defense OR IF they had longer range OR IF they didn't expend all their movement after attacking, they might be worthwhile. As it is now, they can only readily kill units that cost fewer shields than they do... and the next turn, can be easily killed by almost any counter-attacker.

For 20 more shields, you can have a Bomber, which attacks better and is only vulnerable to air units.

I like Paratroops for the odd situation where the AI has some remote city unconnected by road/rail to other cities.

I almost never build Cruise Missiles. Perhaps if they were cheaper, I would. I mean, it's a 60 shield unit, automatically lost on attacking. I recognize Jrabbit's point about them taking out the AI's best city defender, but that defender is usually just 50 shields (Alpine/Mech). The only situation where I feel the CM would be useful would be where the AI city has plenty of Fighters, and is Howitzer-inaccessible. I suppose in that case, a barrage of Cruise Missiles would be the only way to go.

AI only seems to use Cruise Missiles against expensive units, not cities. This means BBs and CVs. (In ToT, it will also use them against expensive units like Plasmen/Magogs)

Marines should be useful, but they generally aren't. During the period of my life when I was tweaking rules.txt, I once set them up to ignore city walls... and I still didn't use them! They come in handy in a few scenarios...Pacific war scenarios mostly.

My question: Does anyone ever build DDs or Cruisers once BBs are available? By the late game, my navy seems to consist of BBs, AEGIS and Transports, with only 1 or 2 DDs remaining from the period between Electricity and Automobile.

[Elephant]

The other "Modern Units" are the Spy and the Engineer. In addition to unlimited "peeks" into AI cities on their RR network, spies can sabotage units, returning home for reuse. Drop an Engineer on a coastal tile that has or is adjacent to the AI RR network and build a city. Then bring in the loaded transports and there is no movement penalty for landing. Take down a whole continent in one turn. Remember to bring some extra pre-charged Engineers for "combat extensions" of the RR network and emergency forts. Engineers also ignore ZOC, so they can slip around blocking units. Also consider the strategic use of Pillaging to force cities (especially the capital) into temporary disorder for easier purchase by roving Spies.

Too much Early Landing/Conquest play really rots our "martial arts"...

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
b) Choppers?? Very expensive for little value. Does anyone have a useful tactic for them??

I don't recall the last time I built one... Two suggestions taking advantage of the feat that they need not land every turn:

i) Maybe good for picking off wandering barb kings in land not yet fully colonised (that also is a barb hot spot)? Don't know how many turns they can hoover, but...

ii) How about using them to prevent partisans from popping out when conquering a city? I normally use fighters for squares without road/railroad, but sometimes there are squares they can't cover without being lost...

Carolus

[La Fayette]

Over 10 rather long posts about modern units... not a single word about the most powerful of them all !
(thank you Elephant that you finally did mention it)

The VET SPY, brothers

With a nuke in her wallet, she's by far the most powerful unit in this game (don't forget that SDI defense has no effect at all against those wallets ).

... at the cost of 30 shields and with so many other uses