Using Modern Units

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by duke o' york
Can any of the scenario wizards tell me if the "scramble to defend" ability is hard-coded as only relevant to ac ity, or if it's a flag that could be applied to carriers and airfields too?
Although the AI probably wouldn't notice any difference with this, the human player might find it makes things more interesting at sea and gives the carriers a more useful role. (Though from what I've heard, most MP games don't reach Flight )

I don't think 'scramble to defend' can be made to affect carriers. And even if it did, you'd need some kind of fortress flag, too, or the carrier and all the planes on board would be lost if the scrambling fighter lost...

I've seen carriers given the AEGIS effect (double defense vs air attack) to simulate the fighter defense. Better, but a long way from being 'right'.

If one wanted to make carriers really relevant, I think the way to do it would be to create cheaper air units for the AI (so CM's wouldn't only be used on BBs/CVs) and of course, create maps with more ocean, so that invasions are more vulnerable. Nothing beats a carrier full of fighter planes for scouting out AI subs, etc.

[duke o' york]

Can any of the scenario wizards tell me if the "scramble to defend" ability is hard-coded as only relevant to ac ity, or if it's a flag that could be applied to carriers and airfields too?
Although the AI probably wouldn't notice any difference with this, the human player might find it makes things more interesting at sea and gives the carriers a more useful role. (Though from what I've heard, most MP games don't reach Flight )

[Bloody Monk]

La Fayette

You do your namesake proud. Your very rich and detailed response is brilliant. Thank you!!

And I agree. The ever beautiful spy with the 'special purse' is very effective.

Monk

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

I didn't mention carriers, which deserve a thread of their own, really.

The short answer about carriers is that they aren't worth building in the game as it is normally played. They're an expensive CM magnet that doesn't defend as well as a BB. Rarely are coastlines far enough apart that AI cities are out of Bomber range. Fighters don't scramble from Carriers (really, when facing air attack, the Fighters should defend as they do in a city).

The AI never builds them, and if gifted carriers, it doesn't know how to use them (treats them as an offensive unit )

I've spent a lot of time trying to devise ways to make Carriers relevant, without much luck. Only a few scenarios manage to achieve this.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk

I've never seen so much AI navy. Not having the ability to shipchain transports limits invasion possiblities until naval superiority is gained. And I'm at a loss as to how to deal with Aegis Cruisers, for example. Hoping they will all smash themselves on coastal fortresses seems a faint hope.

The use of a spy or two to sabotage a ship is very useful information. And I can see that building BBs is not as useful as Aegis, especially where the AI has built coastal fortress. ( I've used BBs in the past as modern versions of Ironclads to bash down a city.)

Monk

For Silly Rules - dealing with the AI navy is simple. Wait for the inevitable 20-ship stack to form, then nuke it (kills all ships on adjacent squares, too!). Presto, naval superiority.

The irony is that I never use nukes on cities, only on ships, and the AI does the opposite.

Using spies & subs to sabotage BBs is a good strategy, and one I haven't tried.

BBs are wasted against cities with coastal forts/Mech inf. A Bomber would do better, generally, or of course, Howitzers. Better to use them to knock out AI units alone on coastlines, or move them into the city as either a super-defender or Partisan-killer.

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk

The point is not whether Spies are wonderful but how they relate to the questions that were asked. Please.
Monk

If you admit that they are wonderful, I can answer your questions :

a) SAM + MechInf = Very nice protection against bombers (though vet fighters with a slight border of red are much more romantic)
SDI = cannot be destroyed by sabotaging, contrary to ALL other improvements; protect ALL squares in a radius of 3.
SAM + SDI + MInf = protects even against vet stealth bombers

b) No, never noticed that

c) If the AI has nukes, it will nuke you either you nuke it or not. SDI is a question of gold, city size and timing: if you are rich, willing to take your time and owner of big cities close to the AI, then build SDI everywhere. If your core cities are safe and you are busy rolling over the AI with 150 howies, one SDI here and there is all you need.

d) AEGIS are strong against both bombers and cruise missiles. I happen to stack them with transports when a shipchain cannot be established in time. But I usually build no Navy in the endgame: costly and fragile. I very much prefer to own MANY transports, build shipchains where needed and lose an empty transport now and then.

e) Subs are so slow that I never send one to the open sea. Only use (combined with vet spies): stay hidden inside a coastal city and destroy BB and AEGIS after the spies have reduced them to yellow or red.

f) Big waste of money IMO: either the bomber loses against an AEGIS, or is destroyed by a fighter next turn.

g) I haven't built a carrier for ages: costly, slow and fragile.

h) I build some for scouting on rough terrain without roads oor RRs. I build many, for fun, if I am very rich in the endgame (I finished my first Rome scenario as Seleucid with a "feu d'artifice" of 200 cruise missiles against remaining Egyptian units ).

i) A young and rather pretty woman with a funny handbag. The lady is now inside the big city protected by SDI... BAOUM!

[Bloody Monk]

@ gunkulator

Another very interesting post. Thanks for sharing these ideas. And don't be a stranger...you might like to join one of the Succession Games.

@ OnS

Great response!! Thank you very much. We seem to have similar tendencies as to build orders.

As you mention the Silly Rules present special considerations about using land units. That's what got me thinking about the premise of this thread (and the relative lack of interest in hearing more posts about how Tubes rule).

I've never seen so much AI navy. Not having the ability to shipchain transports limits invasion possiblities until naval superiority is gained. And I'm at a loss as to how to deal with Aegis Cruisers, for example. Hoping they will all smash themselves on coastal fortresses seems a faint hope.

The use of a spy or two to sabotage a ship is very useful information. And I can see that building BBs is not as useful as Aegis, especially where the AI has built coastal fortress. ( I've used BBs in the past as modern versions of Ironclads to bash down a city.)

Monk

[Old n Slow]

A spy will take out half of the target with successful sabotage -- thus she is my first choice to attack a BB.

I don’t use Choppers much as per the other’s thoughts -- very expensive, thus low marginal value. However, as far as Silly is concerned, the units with “extra” move capability are now more valuable, thus choppers become considerations. I’ve never used cruise missiles (and I think I’ve only used a nuke once.) Haven’t used fighters or bombers much either, since I usually have howies on line before these puppies appear. Hard to justify a bomber when the howie is cheaper, AND has a stronger attack (and with decent RR, a longer range.) Again, with Silly, we may find these units more attractive given the land units’ movement difficulties.

I think I’ve seen a cruise vs a city, but I also don’t recall it being used much. The ai definitely prefers them to start out vs BB, so I’ll often use a BB stacked with an Aegis CA for CM bait, then rotate the boats out & replace them with fresh units to flush out the ai’s attacks. In a game about a year ago, the ai was using a third of its economy building CM & wasting them vs four of my boats.

Once I have cruisers, I don’t build DD anymore; once I have Aegis Cruisers, I usually build them 2 or 3 to the BB’s 1. I prefer the cruiser because of the lower cost, great speed and ability to see everything -- and the Aegis is just all around nice. In fact since three A CAs are cheaper and faster than 2 BBs, I often stop BB production once I have A CAs to play with. And the sad truth is, I usually don’t have much of a navy because the need is not there.

I’ve rarely played the modern units either (especially in the last couple of years) in that the game seems to end too soon for their use. In the recent past when I have used them, I usually have four howies, and one each of tank, jeep, spy and rifle (just because they’re left over) per transport -- with two or three transports taking out a civ or continent.

I think I’ve only built subs once or twice -- their job as far as I’m concerned is to ferry missiles to their targets. I’m assuming that we can boat chain subs & missiles in a similar fashion to boat chaining transports & troops. Their attack factor has some merit, but the real reason why I’m not too keen on them is … they’re slow.

I’ve never built SAMs either -- a solid vet Jeep holds rather well against all kinds of things.

[gunkulator]

Re Bach: I like to found a city on iron or peat and then mine & rail a nearby hill. Add factory + power plant and you have 20 shields - or rather, 20 units, that are disorder-free. It also gives you something to do with all those engineers hanging around after they've improved all your land. Plus you get to utilize those normally empty hill/mountain areas.

Re SAMs. I like to build a city on a hill near AI land (preferably across the ocean from them), build a SAM and barracks and plunk down some Mech Infs. This will attract bombers like flies. The AI knows not to nuke SDI cities but it never learns to lay off SAM cities.

Similarily with Subs: A close by coastal city attracts AI ships, especially battleships. Transform to a hill and/or build coastal fortress. Populate the city with cheap units and wait for the ships to attack. They'll win but be badly damaged. Use Subs to finish them off. Subs are incredibly cheap (60 shields I believe) but have the second highest attack of any ship, 10 vs. BB's 12.

[Bloody Monk]

New questions:

1) SDI creates an umbrella 3 clicks around its home to protect other cities from Nukes. Does that include the tiles that are not cities but are within the umbrella?? For example, will it protect a BB just outside the city??

2) In a similar vein...SDI also protects -v- Cruise Msl. Does this protection extend 3 clicks as well??

3) Can a Sub be protected by an Aegis stack?? If so, could this be used to position Cruise Msl. within range of AI cities??

Thanks and thanks again for keeping things on point.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by gunkulator

If you have JS Bach, you can use it to home all your bombers, missiles and ships to a small set of high shield size 2 or less cities. The cities are safe from Democratic disorder due to the guaranteed 2 content citizens from JSB.

Thanks gunkulator and hello.

This is a wonderful idea about how to utilize these units. A mined Iron and a factory and you are in bidness.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by La Fayette
Over 10 rather long posts about modern units... not a single word about the most powerful of them all !
(thank you Elephant that you finally did mention it)

The VET SPY, brothers

Sorry you were bored, Brother. We all know and love vet spies. And you have posited frequently and eloquently about her virtues.

Perhaps by the time you read the entire thread you had forgotten that Spies were not asked about in the list. Spies are great; Howies are great; Stealth Fighters are great; Tanks are also great; but what about naval and air units?? And what about white goods that bear on them??

It is because I have relied so heavily on Spies, etc, that I find myself lacking experience with the issues listed. It may well be that these units are unnecessary. Still, wouldn't it be nice to learn something new??

The point is not whether Spies are wonderful but how they relate to the questions that were asked. Please.

Monk

[gunkulator]

The AI will mercilessly steal your tech if you let them get spies. Too bad it rarely utilizes the spy's other abilities.

If the AI gets nukes, it will use nuke + paratrooper to take your cities.

For border and coastal cities, plant forests around the border/coast. This stops most AI incursions. Spies, Tanks and Mech Inf will get one move/attack but all the rest are sitting ducks. If you instead station units in forts along your border/coast, expect to attract a lot of bomber attacks.

If you have JS Bach, you can use it to home all your bombers, missiles and ships to a small set of high shield size 2 or less cities. The cities are safe from Democratic disorder due to the guaranteed 2 content citizens from JSB.

Vet Howies, Mech Infs and a couple bombers for cover are all you need to take out the AI at any time.

[La Fayette]

Over 10 rather long posts about modern units... not a single word about the most powerful of them all !
(thank you Elephant that you finally did mention it)

The VET SPY, brothers

With a nuke in her wallet, she's by far the most powerful unit in this game (don't forget that SDI defense has no effect at all against those wallets ).

... at the cost of 30 shields and with so many other uses

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
b) Choppers?? Very expensive for little value. Does anyone have a useful tactic for them??

I don't recall the last time I built one... Two suggestions taking advantage of the feat that they need not land every turn:

i) Maybe good for picking off wandering barb kings in land not yet fully colonised (that also is a barb hot spot)? Don't know how many turns they can hoover, but...

ii) How about using them to prevent partisans from popping out when conquering a city? I normally use fighters for squares without road/railroad, but sometimes there are squares they can't cover without being lost...

Carolus